Hypothetical Question (about raids)

[zfuture]

So this morning I thought of this hypothetical situation:

If there was a raid operation going on, and someone had been to that incall prior to the raid (e.g. few days before). The raid is happening because the incall has drawn attention (illegals, robberies, underage, public complaints etc.).

There are phone records of this person calling, and possibly lobby and hotel floor hallway footage. Would they go back to get this person, or is it guilty only in the act of being there during raid?

Been reading these forums for a while, and haven't seen this pop up!

 

[zfuture]

and to add to the mystique.... what if there are hotel cameras on the floors themselves?

 

[fuji]

The charge is "found in", they have to catch you there. However they might contact you as a witness, and that process could be public and humiliating.

 

[zfuture]

Sorry, my use of terminology was incorrect. What I meant was a raid.

Fuji: You say the charge is "found in", and that they have to catch you there. Hypothetically, what if someone actually did go to the hotel during the raid? They stepped into the hotel, went into the lobby, into the elevator, then changed their mind and didn't go?

4Tees and Fuji: you both mention that this person could be contacted as a witness, and it could be uncomfortable and public. Could you elaborate on this? What is the process like? By public, does this mean your name's published or something?

 

[afterhours]

the cops normally visit the place undercover prior to raid and make notes of what services were offered; they always claim that they don't have enough money for extras and promise to come back (which they do) also they may question people walking out and they would become witnesses

I can hardly see them watching videos for hours and then trying to ID whoever appears on video; the end would not justify the means as it's not a serious enough offence to bother; and if you want to make an arrest for that type of thing you are better off sitting on a place eating donuts and grabbing whoever walks out and asking them to ID themselves rather than figuring it out from video

although if you are a public figure I would certainly use outcalls to hotels

 

[afterhours]

I'm not sure if the Crown or police would pressure a visitor to detail what they did in an incall... just my two cents though.

they absolutely will

 

[zfuture]

Originally Posted by 4tees
I'm not sure if the Crown or police would pressure a visitor to detail what they did in an incall... just my two cents though.

they absolutely will

In that case, would that turn a witness into a suspect?

 

[fuji]

No you would not become a suspect. They would be trying to use your testimony in court to prove that the place was habitually used as an incall so that they could make the charges stick against the people they actually found in it, or the people who operated it.

 

[zfuture]

I'll take that one. You'd likely have to step into the ROOM in which the service was offered. BTW - they wouldn't do it in a hotel, they'd raid an apartment building. There was a post a long time ago in the MP forum where someone stepped foot into an MP during a raid and that was good enough for the police to arrest him. So yes, if you step foot INTO the place defined as a Bawdy House, you could be charged. The warrant that gives police the right to enter the premises would define what constitutes the Bawdy House area. So you could likely park in the parking lot, walk to the door, even place your hand on the door, but put one foot inside during a raid and it may be a difficult situation.

However, what if there were illegals, drugs, underage, public complaint etc. in a particular hotel? A raid can be performed.

You say: "the warrant that gives police the right to enter the premises would define what constitutes the Bawdy House area." So, if police had warrant to go into hotel, would that make any area of the hotel premise a bawdy house? In other words, the entire hotel is a bawdy house. Even though this person may not have went into the room itself, combine phone record with video footage of someone in the hotel lobby/hallways, is there a case?

 

[Moraff]

However, what if there were illegals, drugs, underage, public complaint etc. in a particular hotel? A raid can be performed.

You say: "the warrant that gives police the right to enter the premises would define what constitutes the Bawdy House area." So, if police had warrant to go into hotel, would that make any area of the hotel premise a bawdy house? In other words, the entire hotel is a bawdy house. Even though this person may not have went into the room itself, combine phone record with video footage of someone in the hotel lobby/hallways, is there a case?

I would say that unless the ENTIRE hotel was involved in the situation you posit, the "Bawdy house" would only apply to the rooms that the activity was going on in. To think otherwise would mean that every single guest in the hotel was now part of the bawdy house... and that's just silly.

 

[Aardvark154]

Why use incall when outcall is legal?

 

[Stoo]

Why use incall when outcall is legal?

Price, convenience, time, no credit card bills... there's lots of reasons!

 

[lurkerjoe]

I'll take that one. You'd likely have to step into the ROOM in which the service was offered. BTW - they wouldn't do it in a hotel, they'd raid an apartment building. There was a post a long time ago in the MP forum where someone stepped foot into an MP during a raid and that was good enough for the police to arrest him. So yes, if you step foot INTO the place defined as a Bawdy House, you could be charged. The warrant that gives police the right to enter the premises would define what constitutes the Bawdy House area. So you could likely park in the parking lot, walk to the door, even place your hand on the door, but put one foot inside during a raid and it may be a difficult situation.

Yup - you can be there to fix the plumbing (and not having your plumbing fixed) and they can arrest you but its likely they'll excerise discretion and let you off if you're the Rogers cable guy. Many years ago, I had a friend in Mtl who worked for videotron and he was caught in a raid as he was doing some work. He knew the place was kinda weird when he saw the place but who was he to judge (so he tells me)? He showed them the work order and cops let him go. Contrary to some comments not all cops are assholes. Just the ones in the GTA!

 

[fuji]

Why use incall when outcall is legal?

My wife would not be too appreciative, adding a hotel room essentially doubles the cost, and incall is simply more convenient.

 

[lurkerjoe]

However, the Crown may have my phone records, they may have my image stepping into the place, but what they would NEED is me ADMITTING to paying for sex at that location. What kind of pressure would they put on me to ADMIT to that and WHY would they do that? Would they call my family with those pictures? Would they publish my pictures in order to get me to "ADMIT" to something that I would deny? I'm not a criminal expert, but that would seem to be to be coercion or even blackmail.

Don't worry, they don't need evidence/testemony from anyone even from the people who are found in the premises. By the time the raid occurs, they already have enough evidence that the place is a bawdy house. Once a premises is established as a bawdy house, they just have to prove that the people charged were there and the arrest is prima facie evidence of that. If you're worried about being forced to testify, I'd say the chances are as good as Canada Owning the Podium this year (Yankees - we're coming for you in 2014). If you're worried about being charged and you're not in the bawdy house at the time, you're laughing. You have to be there at the time of the raid to be charged.

The cops don't really care about in-calls, they only care if there's other illegal activities (drug/human trafficking) or if there's minors involved. Only other time they'd do it is if there's multiple complaints against an identifiable unit in an apartment building just to break it up. They're never going to bust a hotel/motel unless they have evidence that the place knows its rooms are going to be used for a bawdy house. The Hilton or any other established hotel has so many people coming in and out, they don't ask what why people are renting a room - for all they know a frequent repeat costumer could be renting it to carry out an affair.

 

[Hard Idle]

Things like phone logs, saved e-mails and other records of your visitisits & communications would only be used to research any possible involvment in something more serious than just the sex - like the examples you brought up of drugs, weapons, underage/forced SP's, or other organized crime activity.

I assume unless you were very informed or involved in the more serious allegations, you would simply be tapped for information and perhaps your trails could be used as leverage to get your information and possibly testimony in exchange for discretion and immunity (from what would probably be a very unstable case against you but could notheless be expensive and "outing" )

 

[zfuture]

Don't worry, they don't need evidence/testemony from anyone even from the people who are found in the premises. By the time the raid occurs, they already have enough evidence that the place is a bawdy house. Once a premises is established as a bawdy house, they just have to prove that the people charged were there and the arrest is prima facie evidence of that. If you're worried about being forced to testify, I'd say the chances are as good as Canada Owning the Podium this year (Yankees - we're coming for you in 2014). If you're worried about being charged and you're not in the bawdy house at the time, you're laughing. You have to be there at the time of the raid to be charged.

The cops don't really care about in-calls, they only care if there's other illegal activities (drug/human trafficking) or if there's minors involved. Only other time they'd do it is if there's multiple complaints against an identifiable unit in an apartment building just to break it up. They're never going to bust a hotel/motel unless they have evidence that the place knows its rooms are going to be used for a bawdy house. The Hilton or any other established hotel has so many people coming in and out, they don't ask what why people are renting a room - for all they know a frequent repeat costumer could be renting it to carry out an affair.

These other illegal activies that you mentioned (drug/human trafficking, minors). From what you say if these are going on in a hotel, then a raid can occur. The people charged would be the ones "found-in". But since there are illegal activities that you mentioned in this incall, would they deepen their investigation and go after people that visited these "illegals" on prior days in other hotels based off of call records and video footage?

 

[zfuture]

Things like phone logs, saved e-mails and other records of your visitisits & communications would only be used to research any possible involvment in something more serious than just the sex - like the examples you brought up of drugs, weapons, underage/forced SP's, or other organized crime activity.

I assume unless you were very informed or involved in the more serious allegations, you would simply be tapped for information and perhaps your trails could be used as leverage to get your information and possibly testimony in exchange for discretion and immunity (from what would probably be a very unstable case against you but could notheless be expensive and "outing" )

From what you are saying, what if some average John attended this incall, but had no knowledge of illegals, weapons, underage, etc. There would be a bunch of John's that didn't know this. Would they backtrack and get these Johns that visited these places pre-raid (based off of phone and video records)?

 

[fuji]

zfuture you'll never get completely satisfying answers to these questions.

Reality is that in TORONTO your odds of being arrested at an incall are very low. Even if they do raid one (on some complaint) they wouldn't be very interested in spending a lot of time on it.

In YORK REGION you might have a different experience as the police there have been cracking down on massage parlours and possibly incalls as well.

What could change all this is if an incall were involved in some much larger and more serious crime, say sexual abuse of an underage girl. In that case the police would devote a LOT more resources to it, would be much more likely to charge anyone they find, and more likely to want to collect additional evidence, beyond simply establishing that the place was an incall.

The attitudes of the police in Toronto could also change if Toronto elected conservative politicians such as York Region has so their lax attitude towards incalls today could change if the politics of the city changes.

 

[lurkerjoe]

These other illegal activies that you mentioned (drug/human trafficking, minors). From what you say if these are going on in a hotel, then a raid can occur. The people charged would be the ones "found-in". But since there are illegal activities that you mentioned in this incall, would they deepen their investigation and go after people that visited these "illegals" on prior days in other hotels based off of call records and video footage?

Anything's possible, I suppose, but if the cops try to get me to admit I paid to bang a 16 year old, I'd tell them to fuck off, even if my testimony can't be used against me (s.13 Charter). Criminal trials are in open court, human trafficking and child sex rings attract so much media, trying to keep it secret by testifying is pretty much out the door.