Is It Cheating ???

[TJ in the 'Peg]

On another thread I read some guy getting flamed for cheating on his wife. Rather ironic I thought given the nature of the board.

Someone countered that it was better than having an affair. I agree.

I would like to point out that there are reasons for married men to 'hobby' other than an unquenchable thirst for sex.

I love my wife very much and will NEVER leave her. We have been together for 8 years. She has a condition that has robbed her of her sex drive. Completely. There is nothing there. Never has been. She does not know what she has lost.

I knew about this shortly after we first met. I thought that it couldn't be completely gone, that she must be overstating things. I was wrong.

But I quickly fell in love with her. I thought that I could handle having a very 'unnatural' sex life. Again. I was wrong.

She was able to 'service' me, but it was cold, and passionless. The condition also made intercourse painful (this is a medical condition, not a communicable STD, so nobody out there has to worry), so intercourse was a rarity. She doesn't want to be with me 'that' way, she has no desire. She does not ache to touch, nor to be touched.

After 8 years, what is a person to do? I still have the same drives and desires, yet I love my wife. She is a kind, caring, compassionate soul, who has NEVER had a sexual desire or thougth in her entire life. She cannot fathom what I am missing, because she has never experienced it. She cannot fake what I am missing, because she has never experienced it. Can you explain colour to someone born blind?

Yet, I love her, and will not leave, again, what is a person to do?

I started with SC and MP, but found them unfulfilling, and have just now decided to try SP. I have booked time with Sky and Lexi (by all accounts, lovely ladies, and yes, I do believe that they are all ladies).

Hopefully I can find what I am missing. Even if faked, it doesn't matter. It is good to feel wanted, and to have someone respond to your touch. I am not even sure I know how to do that anymore.

We are not all victims of our hormones, but after 8 years, my will power has run down.

I didn't put this in for sympathy - don't want that. I am ready to be flamed for this note. I just want you to know that there are reasons other than hormones for men seeking out SP's.

Sometimes it is just hormones - and there is nothing wrong with that. Sometimes there is a little more behind it than just hormones. It is always better than an affair. Men who 'hobby' can still love their wives.

TJ

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

In a perfect world....

You are in a very common situation. Or, where the wife has simply lost interest in sex which sometimes can be helped with hormones but not always and the women has to be motivated enough to seek help.

I get lots of E-mails from www.libchirst.com from men with this situation that feel guility "cheating" yet do not want to have no sexual gratification which is what our bodies/mind/souls are designed to enjoy unless something goes wrong.

I even have a "canned" reply that I often include when asked about the issue since it is so common. I say:

To me, the ideal solution if this was a perfect world, which seldom works in reality is for couples to be honest about their mismatched sex drives and the less sexual partner if (usually she) really loves the other would want him to find sexual fulfillment beyond masturbation outside. But in our culture where we have this silly view that somehow sex=love it isn't easy for couples to agree to this.

Professional sexworkers could server a very positive role, like they do in many other cultures. It's only the legal situation that is the problem (in the U.S.) There are many great professional sexworkers that provide great services to those needing a caring sexual experience, even if just for an hour and paid for. The US is one of only a few countries in the world that makes this healthy, wholesome sexual pleasure option illegal. There is nothing wrong biblically with "common" prostitution, only sex goddess idolatry like in the Temples of Corinth.

I wish there were lots of women out their experiencing the same problem, but the men outnumber them by a wide margin. And it doesn't solve the problem of being honest in the relationship. I agree there is a need to solve this human condition...but the only logical safe solution in my mind is sexworkers, if our culture wasn't so sexually repressed and immature about those issues.

Sometime this "cheating" is necessary to "save" an otherwise great marriage. Going to a professional sexworker makes far more "ethical" sense to me than having an "affair" which could be more of a threat to the marriage.

Your issue is very very common unfortunately.

 

[TJ in the 'Peg]

Treatments...

Thanks for the support.

We tried the hormone therapy approach, it helped moderately, but you hit on the key item. Motivation.

If there is no desire, there is no motivation to take the treatment. She doesn't understand why it is important, and feels pressured. Soon she starts to resent the treatment, and any reminder you offer to take the medication is seen as 'nagging' and 'just seeing her as a sex object' followed by 'if I really loved her, this "sex thing" wouldn't be so important'.

Needless to say, the treatments soon stopped.

TJ

 

[Jenn_angel]

TJ...

I feel for you.

I know of many circumstances like this and I commend you for not letting it grow into resentment and even hatred like some men I know.

I can not know exactly how you feel as I have never loved anyone that much and been in your situation, but I have come across it many times.

Believe it or not... I know of men who are also in situations like that... That being your wifes situation. One of my very dear male friends has absolutely no desire to be with someone sexually... He never has, He makes jokes that if it suited his religion he would be a perfect priest, but alas... He instaed chooses to tell people he is abstaining... Saving himself until he is married.

I wish you the best in your relationship... And I hope you find temporary gratification in your hobby. It must be incerdably hard to over look and that fact that you have thusfar make me envy you. The love that you must have for your wife is incredible.

 

[torex]

I admire you!not only for your honesty with your situation, but the unconditional "LOVE" you have for your wife!!!
I wish you all the best!!!
Try getting her drunk, tie her to the bed spread eagled and DATY her for a couple of hours.maybe she'll cum around???rofl
I mean this in the most respectable way!!!just trying to get a laugh in a sad thread!;oP
To bad many other couples can't "LOVE" each other the way you to do!!!

"LOVE" is such a big word.

 

[luckyjackson]

My sympathies.

I don't doubt that you do love your wife. And, there are far less extreme situations in a marriage, (mine for example), where the man still feels the need to seek fun with other women.

But the question you posed was, "Is it cheating?" Yes it is. You twice ask, what is a person to do? Well my friend I suspect, both you and I know what should be done. Regardless of the reasons, unless you know for a fact that your wife would understand, and prefer to keep your relationship as it is, then you're being dishonest and it is cheating. In my view, if you love someone, you owe them honesty.

I'm not judging, because obviously I can't meet this standard myself. Nonetheless, it's what's right.

 

[VatoLoco]

I agree with you TJ, an affair would ruin a relationship and
the hobby seems like the only option you have so far.
One thing is for sure though, you got to be careful because
it could still be risky if your wife finds out. Like Dave suggested in his response, it would probably be a very sensible thing for you to talk about this with your wife.
I know it probably won't be easy but you and your wife seem to have a very strong bond with each other, I am sure if you explain it to her she will thank you for your honesty.

Otherwise, it would be the same as having an affair since it would be something forbidden and that you would have to do behind her back!

Needless to say I know that it is probably going to be almost impossible, but I am a hopeless romantic and firmly believe that love is the strongest of forces in this world.
Where there is love there is hope, where there is hope there is a chance for everything to get better. Your wife and you seem to certainly have the love, the rest is sure to follow.

Communication is also extremely important in any kind of relationship. I don't know how good the communication is between your wife and you, so the only thing I could tell you is to try and let her know how you feel.

Finally, whatever you decide I wish you all the best of luck
TJ.

PS decca:
Was that supposed to be a joke? That was as funny as an old lady in her death-bed.There is just no way that you can be serious when you say that you mean it in the most respectful
way, there is just no way. I can see how your tiny brain can't comprehend the nature of the issue at hand; however you should try to be a bit more sensible in what you say.
Try using something called: "COMMON SENSE" and try to put yourself in TJ's situation. I know it must be painful for you to think but at least try please!
The funny thing as always is your spelling, grammar and inability to string a few thoughts together, and I say this
"IN THE MOST RESPECTFUL OF WAYS."

 

[Mikehorn]

Vat:

I totally disagree that TJ's wife will understand. She's coming from a totally different place than he is on this issue. He's already told us that she doesn't understand why this "sex thing" is so important to him, and that she feels if he really loves her it wouldn't be. If he has this sort of discussion with her she will likely be thinking two things:

1. He doesn't really love me

2. He's a sex-crazed pervert

Unfortunately the only real choices TJ appears to have that will keep his marriage together are either abstinence or pursuing the hobby in secret.

 

[VatoLoco]

Honesty

I see where you're coming from Mike; however, it is not an issue of what is TJ's wife going to think. This is an issue
about honesty. Although TJ's wife hasn't had the chance to experience any kind of sexual feelings, that should not stop her from being able to understand how TJ might be feeling.
First of all if she loves him as much as he seems to love her, they should be able to come to a mutual understanding of each other's situation.

If TJ doesn't let her know how he is feeling, and what he is thinking of doing he is not doing any better than if he was having an affair. Maybe even more exciting than an affair, since this hobby has a certain stigma sorrounding it, even more than cheating. Even then things could escalate and TJ may even start to have feelings for a certain SP, and may try to pursue it. To avoid all of those negative scenerios he has to be able to tell his wife. This will give both peace of mind.

Since I think TJ is not too sure about it either and may be looking for approval from other members of the board. You got to follow your heart TJ and do what you think is right.
I would opt to talk about it with my partner if something like this ever happened to me.

At the end it boils down to respect and honesty, if you respect your wife you have to talk to her about this even if you think she may not approve of your plan or may view you
under a different light. You never know as if you explain it to her in a sensible way, she may even come around later on and may decide to participate, or collaborate with you TJ.

 

[clipper]

Honesty

From what I can see, TJ has honestly expressed his desire for sex and his wife has honestly expressed her inability to provide it.

I don't think she needs more "honesty". If he denies himself,
he'll eventually come to resent her. If he tells her, then she has to deal with something she obviously doesn't want to deal with.

If you want to label it cheating you can. This is a mental health issue for TJ and for most men. Celibacy has not been a successful strategy historically for men. Look at the Catholic church.

In today's world, where the media sexualizes everything, denying yourself a sexual outlet is clearly masochistic and harmful.

It's up to TJ to make a choice that he can live with. There is absolutely no point in him feeling guilt about his choice. Guilt and fear are completely destructive human emotions.

 

[TJ in the 'Peg]

Thanks for the Support

I want to thank all of you for your support and input (yes, even Decca -)

VatoLoco - I respect your thoughts and opinions, but they are note based in the real world, not in this case. Explaining a sex drive to someone who has never had one would be like explaining colour and site to someone who was born blind. They just wouldn't get it. If they has lost their slight later in life, then that would be an option, but to have been born without ever knowing it, is never to know it.

Trying to explain things to my wife is just not worth the risk - she is a jealous woman to start with.

Is it cheating? I honestly don't know. To me it isn't cheating unless it is an affair and it isn't an affair if it is just physical. It only becomes an affair when someone else can lay claim to your emotions - though that may just be a bit of rationalism on my part.

As for getting emotionally caught up with an SP? Well, I only plan on doing this when I travel, so I don't think that is a risk. Even if I didn't restrict my activities to travel, my heart belongs to my wife, and none other.

I have however made many friends this way. I used to go to the SC's a lot. I met a lot of wonderful ladies there, and became friends with several. Yes, just friends, a few did however offer me their 'services' and I did take the offer up with one or two, this is what eventually led me to SP's. These services were offered without charge, seeing the danger that this could lead to something that I didn't want to develop, that aspect of our friendship ended, and we now stick to meeting for a drink now and then, but stay very much in touch with each other's lives by email.

They are wonderful people. Sometimes people mistake what one does, with who one is.

Decca, take heart, you did bring me a smile.


TJ

 

[Dianna Douglas]

An interesting topic. . . .

TJ,
I think that you have brought up some important points. First of all, I have many clients in situations that are similar to yours. You are most definitely not the only one coping with this issue!

I'm glad to hear that you are able to acknowledge the difference between love and sex. The world is a wonderful place when you can find both in a relationship! But so many couples struggle with this issue -- they often have one without the other.

You are lucky enough to love someone special in your life. I'm guessing that you would rather hold her, talk to her, and share every day with her than with anyone else. But sex is a biological need. When I was doing my nursing degree, we studied the "basic human needs" -- things that human beings can't live without. Air, food, water, shelter, . . . . . and social interaction including sex. If you can't develope a meaningful sexual relationship with your wife, I can't help but think that it would be healthy to look elsewhere, if you have no other choice.

I have had several married clients who mention the same thing: After 20 or 30 years of marriage, their spouse is often their best friend. Love grows stronger as the years pass. But many women start to lose their sex drive as menopause approaches! Many men turn to an outside party to fill the gap - intimacy, passion, tenderness, and excitement. SP's can fill this role, without the emotional baggage of an affair - and I think that this is a good thing.

Play safe, and don't ever let your lovely wife find out! Oh, and enjoy the non-sexual (but pleasurable) physical contact you get at home. The best kiss I've ever had was with some one I loved with all my heart.

 

[TJ in the 'Peg]

Thanks

Thanks Randall. Your empathy is appreciated. It is always good to know that one is not alone.

PS - you should include your website (if you have one) with your signature. I am sure there are many of us who would like to see someone as empathetic as you. If you have one, let us know.

TJ

 

[ashley4u]

T.J

My heart goes out to you I completely understand what your going through. I just wanted to say that not everyone does what is right but they do wha they have to too get by. You must be some kind of man to not just get up and leave because I think most men would just get sick of it and move on . I hope you find what your looking for.

 

[cooper]

Interesting thread

I thoroughly enjoyed reading all the responses on this thread. Too bad more women couldn't read it so that they could appreciate the frustration that men who are not sexuallly fulfilled go through.

I was in a marriage for 19 years to a woman that did not have a high sex drive. While there were many other reasons the marriage failed, the lack of sexual fulfill ment was certainly a major factor. In fact when my ex and I were having discussions about ending our marrige I rated myself a 9.5 on a ten point scale in terms of sex drive and rated her a 2. She couldn't disagree. She always referred to me as a "pervert" and at times I began to agree with her. I know now that if you are lucky enough to find a partner with a matching sex drive it can be a blessing. If you don't... its a curse. And for many ofl those that don't they turn to hobbying.

Since my marriage I have had the pleasure of being in a few tremendously satisfying sexual relationships. My challenge has been that these relationships were not fulfilling in other ways (mentally, emotionally). And, I stayed in these realtionships far too long because the sex was so good. Even married one woman. A marriage that lasted 4 months... she was a wacko and a gold digger.... long story.

Now I am in a relationship with a very sweet woman. Her drive is higher than my ex's but it isn't what I need ideally. And, while she is fairly attractive there are things about her that don't "push my buttons". She is not the greatest kisser, doesn't LOVE giving oral and has small breasts (what can I say I love a nice, natrual C cup). Where am I going with this? Well, I find myself longing for what I had before. I don't like that I do it but I can't help it. I was in a relationship with a very attractive blonde...nice full lips... the BEST kisser. Very soft skin, gorgeous natural D cups, belly piercing... very hot. I would get sooooo whipped up with her and the sex was fabulous, I just can't get her out of my mind. And, further, I long for that kind of sexual gratification which is why I still hobby.

Sometimes I wonder if I need to reevaluate what I want/need out of a relationship. I just can't seem to find that women where there is a "complete" connection. But I guess if that was easy "hobbying" would not exist.

 

[aguyinto]

While hearing a bunch of differing responses and rationalising it to ease your conscience, isn't the litmus (and only) test what your wife thinks.

My wife thinks it's cheating and she couldn't give a f*ck about what anybody else thinks.

TJ - From your comments, I suspect your wife would not be very receptive if you came clean. It also sounds like you love your wife dearly but are missing something important in your relationship (I know where you're coming from!!).

Nobody else can truly appreciate your exact situation and only you know the risks and rewards of continuing with the hobby. I think Clipper had the best advice when he said "It's up to TJ to make a choice that he can live with. "

Cheers and good luck.

Guy

 

[Willywants]

In Some Respects.....

......honesty kills!!!
If I was forthcoming with my wife, I would be out the door! Or alternately, she would leave the marriage! This after 39 years!
TJ, I can empathize with you to a degree! My wife has experienced the rewards of a healthy love session, but has somehow lost sight of how she got to the big "O"!
She is neither sensual, sexual or passionate at this stage of her life!
Yet, she is the most loving and nurturing person I know, as well as being a good friend!
She is a cancer survivor of many years now, having undergone a mastectomy for breast cancer! Her self worth diminished after that, despite undergoing breast reconstruction! The chemo treatments blew her thyroid and she is now on permanent hormonal supplements! The hormonal supplements reduced bone mass to the degree that she is osteoporatic with a good dose of osteo arthritis thrown in!
She has now found that the pain killers she has been on can cause a massive heart attack under certain conditions!
Unlike you, I am still permitted to use her body, if I choose, for self gratification! I choose not!
I will hold her, caress her, kiss her, massage her and cuddle her, but I cannot abide being accommodated!
Like your wife, her thoughts are off about sex, in a direction that seems to be defensive! She has adopted a Victorian, prudish and very negative attitude towards sex in general!
Of course, her ideas about marriage and what it should be, while not wrong, tend to take on a very restrictive bent!
Even after 39 years, she would like me to be something and someone I cannot be! I would like her to be something and someone she cannot be!
Yet the love and the marriage prevail!
To her, my looking, talking to, dancing with or otherwise giving another woman attention, is tantamount to cheating!
As I do all of the above, and am bound to be painted as a cheater, I have chosen to go the distance and find what I lack in the arms of an SP! And no, I do not see it as cheating on my wife! I see it as self preservation, both hers and mine!
I didn't mean to turn this into a Willy saga! Your circumstances are certainly different! I just wanted to give you my perspective on what, in ones mind, may be labelled cheating, but in another's, such as mine, represents survival!
I've been on the Psych's couch! Hope I can save you the trip!

Willywants (to be rid of the frustration and double standard!)

 

[A1Provider]

unrealistic expectation of what marriage is about

When I first entered the business I was a little surprised at the amount of married men that visited me. At first I thought they were cheating on their wives. That was until a few of my clients told me about their sexless married life. And how unattractive and rejected they felt, and just gave up asking anymore. Yes I am not a mature woman, was not raised in the 50s or 60's and the heard the messages that 'good girls dont like sex'. And I am not personally aware of the hormonal changes that may affect drive or body image issues because of the aging process. It became obvious that most of my clients really loved their wives, which was a surprise at first. I was conditioned to believe , like most women, that if a man has sex with anyone other than you he does not really love you.
But I dont believe a sexless marriage is a true marriage. I believe their are a lot of women who unrealistically think they can have their cake and eat it too. I could not believe how many men said their wives would not perform oral sex on them! WHAT? That is not right, in my opinion. I dont believe alot of wives understand that sex is a 'need' not a 'want'. According to Maslows hierarchy of Needs. I believe it is in th top 10, after food, water and shelter.
But this is the interseting to still see in the year 2002 how male and female children are raised differently. Most parents think it is boys being boys when they have a lot of girlfriends, but let their daughters have such liberal views of men and sex and they want to lock her in the house until she is 30. Men and women are conditioned from an early age to view sex differently.
BTW- Some men dont realize that their wives are feeling used when the only time he gives her any real attention is when he is horny. Foreplay starts before you hit the bedroom guys in a realtionship. Women really 'get off' when men take out the garbage and help around the house and with kids, because they feel appreciated and then usually dont mind giving more sexually. And no that wont guarantee anal sex or threesome,LOL. Men have to be realistic too.

 

[einar]

Fine, interesting thread. If you really accept that full honesty is the fundament of marriage, or of a deep committed relationship, then all spouses should know everything about each other. And accept everything about each other, no matter how challenging or distasteful.

However, most of us don't live like that. We have our individual hobbies, jobs, friends, and sometimes our secrets. I'm not at all sure this is bad, to have parts of one's life where a spouse may not intrude. Indeed, I think it is healthy to a relationship, although I cannot prove it.

Moreover, when it comes to sex, it is rare that two people are really in synch, and remain so. My suspicion is that sexual attraction tends to wither when two people begin to live together. Or even when they begin to spend too much time together. (Sex is one way of bridging of a distance between two people, but you have to have the distance or there's no need for the bridge.)

It is conceivable that there are long-married couples with vibrant, monogamous sex lives. Have I known any? Well, people don't usually talk about these things, but I doubt it.

The world of sexual pleasure by the hour is a terrific adult subculture, in my opinion. It keeps us in touch with the sensual side of our lives, which clearly is important to some of us.

Einar

 

[TJ in the 'Peg]

Willy

Hi Willy. I am sorry to hear about your situation. Thanks for sharing, it must have been difficult.

TJ