Is it time to sell income trusts?

sorely

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Sep 10, 2001
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IT's are coming under pressure again, at a time when they haven't been performing particularly well. Gov't is concerned about the $1.1 billion in missed annual taxes.

I have investments in IT's, mainly in the energy sector. Is it time to sell
(maybe two months ago, dammit) before the Gov't sticks its fingers into the pie?
 

Shades

Shades of .....
Feb 8, 2002
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I would watch them carefully. I don't see any change in the legislation before the next election....but it could be part of an election platform. The key will be what tax changes are proposed. They probably won't wipe out all the tax advantages, but the attractiveness will surely change. My after tax $0.02 worth.
 

toolioiep

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Aug 29, 2004
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Being closely linked to one of the top ITU guys in the country, I can tell you that the odds of seeing any changes to tax laws on the domestic side is pretty remote - mostly for political reasons. No party is going to even suggest changing the tax treatment until they are in a majority position - which is a lesson learned from the Liberals.

However, you can count on things changing for foreign investors. Placing a withholding tax on them solves a lot of problems, as it minimizes the tax loss and keeps domestic investors fairly content.

What that lovely article failed to point out is that the BCE conversion is a taxable event (read: disposition) and will actually create substantial tax revenue for the government in the short term.
 

sorely

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And when the majority comes in ???

I think the capital gains taxes on the BCE conversion were included , but maybe not.
 

great bear

The PUNisher
Apr 11, 2004
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Nice Dens
Shit! I thought this post was about taxing a truss. Was afraid I would have to walk around hanging low.
 

toolioiep

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sorely said:
And when the majority comes in ???
.
Who knows when that will be though? It could be in the next six months, or the next six years - and the notion of selling an investment on something that might not happen for years is absurd.

As for when a majority comes in - it is dependant upon which party is ruling and the economics of that time. If the gov't is running a huge surplus (like today) and is very business friendly (like the Conservatives) there is very little incentive for changing the tax treatment. How does any party justify a tax increase in times of such huge surpluses? They can't....

On the other hand, if it is a party that is not as friendly to businesses/the wealthy (NDP?) the change could happen pretty quickly. Same thing if the budget is in the red.

The point being - there are a lot of things that would have to happen/change for a tax treatment change to go through. Selling based on an article in the paper before any of them occur is how people loose out on potential gains.

Besides, if you will recall, the G&M has been highlighting the tax loss on trusts for a few years and nothing has happened since. You certainly would have hated to sell based on one of those previous articles...
 

toolioiep

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Aug 29, 2004
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sorely said:
I think the capital gains taxes on the BCE conversion were included , but maybe not.
This would be impossible to estimate without knowledge of who owns the shares and their adjusted cost base.

However, you can count on one thing - it is going to be quite substantial.
 

1HandInMyPocket

Unoffical Capital One rep
Mar 2, 2002
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sorely said:
Is it time to sell
(maybe two months ago, dammit) before the Gov't sticks its fingers into the pie?
I guess it all depends how much of the pie they take. In the end, even after taxes, your cash flow from ITs > 0. You should only sell if you can invest your money into another investment that is greater than you after tax IT distribution. For me, I am not investment savvy, so ITs are the only investment for me. The only difficulty is finding one that I like.
 

sorely

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toolioiep said:
Who knows when that will be though? It could be in the next six months, or the next six years - and the notion of selling an investment on something that might not happen for years is absurd.



The point being - there are a lot of things that would have to happen/change for a tax treatment change to go through. Selling based on an article in the paper before any of them occur is how people loose out on potential gains.

..
The Liberals made one comment a year ago and the sector nose-dived 20%.

It doesn't take much action or inaction to shift the market.
 

mexicanbullfrog

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Jun 1, 2003
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I have never been an Income Trust fan. I think it is a decent structure for companies in the energy sector, and for real estate. However, considering the energy sector has been so hot for so long, and is only now coming under pressure as the risk and supply premium are being flushed out, I cannot see how these trust can continue to pay out those high yields on 85%+ payout ratios. Business Trusts for the most part do not work that well. Notwithstanding the huge tax saving the companies enjoy, and the initial 20% pop in share value, these structures are not condusive to building long-term growth in shareholder value.
What i would like to see is not so much a change in tax laws for income trusts, but more favourable tax treatment of dividends and capital gains on shares. This will diminish the attractiveness for businesses to convert to trusts. And this is already happening.
A word of caution, do not get overly concentrated in one particular sector of the market, or one particular type of investment.
Consider Large-Cap Internationally diverse companies that pay dividends, and have a great history of increasing their dividends more than 5% per year. Then narrow that list to those companies that are cheap relative to their peers/industry. You'll find that some companies actually double their dividend payouts every 5 year period. This is true wealth building, and a surefire way to outpace inflation... don't walkaway from the 2-3% dividend yield without checking the history of dividend increases. Yield is just a measure of payment dividend by share price... guess what... share prices go up when dividends go up, so the 2 to 3% yield seems steady, but you will get a 10% increase in earnings each year. Interested?
 

toolioiep

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Aug 29, 2004
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sorely said:
The Liberals made one comment a year ago and the sector nose-dived 20%.

It doesn't take much action or inaction to shift the market.
My point was because of that, do you think any minority gov't will even go near the issue? Especially since the comment made by the Liberals was 'we're reviewing the tax treatment on income trusts'!

Exactly. Thanks for agreeing with me.
 
Ashley Madison
Toronto Escorts