Is The Third World War Here?

oil&gas

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Ghawar
Rob Campbell
Jul 16, 2025

I am writing this after reading an article by Dmitry Trenin because I think that some people may benefit from a look at the ‘big picture’ which probably doesn’t receive sufficient attention in the Update. Following the speculation of some commentators, many people are asking: are we in a ‘cold war’ or a ‘third world war’ or neither?

Dmitry Trenin (pictured) believes that the Third World War is with us already but it is very different from the First and Second. Trenin is a member of Russia’s Foreign and Defence Policy Council and a former Colonel in Russia’s intelligence services. Until recently, he was very much pro-Western. He believes that this East/South v West conflict is the product of a changing balance of power in the world, which is not in dispute.

Anyway, some say we have entered a new ‘cold war’ which people my age know something about. The cold war, which greeted me at birth, involved ideological opposition between Russia/China and the West, a nuclear arms race1, lots of nasty rhetoric and some hot wars (e.g. Korea and Vietnam). The US also financed and equipped different groups to fight for US interests in the Middle East, Africa and Latin America. I am summarising.

But there was still dialogue between Russia and the West and there was friendly exchanges between the two in sports competitions alongside a friendly cultural exchange (e.g. cinema/television).2 The cold war, then, was very different from hot wars where there is direct conflict between the two sides who would each seek to demonise and dehumanise the enemy.

The current situation has similarities with past cold and hot wars but has introduced new forms of warfare which featured only marginally in these. It is a hybrid war which someone will provide a name for at some point. It may be useful to look at it in detail.

It may not appear obvious to everyone but this is very much a World War between the decaying Western Hegemon (the US), its satellites (e.g. Europe) and the Rest of the World. It also involves proxy countries (e.g. Ukraine and Israel) which are engaged in proxy wars on behalf of the Hegemon This is not a full on hot war, because direct combat between the major antagonists is limited - though it is clear that Western troops are engaged on the front lines in Ukraine against Russian forces while Western forces have assisted Israel in the Middle East.

In both Europe and the Middle East, the West is employing terrorist methods and regime change tactics, which have not been prominent in past wars - as far as I know3. Assassinations have been used in Ukraine, Gaza, Lebanon and Iran and innovative means, such as exploding pagers, have been employed.

We must not forget that until relatively recently wars were fought between armies while civilians were not generally involved. The concept of ‘total war’ was introduced during World War Two and civilian casualties became acceptable. Perhaps we are now seeing is an extension of this - since Israel and Ukraine are actually targeting civilians - and this is accepted by their Western backers.

Drones 4 can now attack the length and breadth of any country rendering many important targets vulnerable - including strategic nuclear bombers in Russia5 on June 1st and Iran’s air defences on June 13th. Indeed, it seems that no targets are now off limits and we have seen nuclear facilities and power plants attacked along with the Nord Stream pipelines. Propaganda has also featured prominently in these conflicts. And just as in full on hot wars, the demonisation of the enemy has far surpassed anything that Dr. Goebbels could conjure.

Russia, its history and its culture have been erased just as much as Trotsky was by Stalin6 - and of course the West would very much like to give Russia the ‘Icepick’ treatment.7 Just as in Woke morality, Russia cannot be forgiven - though some sensible European voices have called for a reproachment. Napoleon wanted to convert Russia politically; Hitler wanted to enslave it, while the West wants to break it up into small defenceless and manageable bits whose resources can be exploited with very little risk. Finally, sanctions and tariffs are an important part of the economic war being fought. So forget the idea that the West is engaged in some sort of moral, libertarian campaign.

For these reasons, this current conflict is very different from previous World Wars.






It will be obvious from one look at the above maps that the West’s main opponents in this area are Russia, China and Iran - though India could also be an opponent one day soon. It will also be obvious that the red trading route is much more efficient and cost effective than the blue (it is also sanctions free). It may also be clear that Western efforts to disrupt this arrangement will involve attacks on Russia, China and Iran while attempting to win over Azerbaijan and its neighbour Armenia. Efforts are already underway in the latter two countries along with Moldova to cause friction between them and Russia. Previously, such efforts have also failed in Georgia which is still not secure from regime change efforts.

I think it is important to know about such things in order to understand the war, which is more than a cold war and is being fought between the decaying Uni-Polar World Order (the Hegemon) and the emerging Multi-Polar World Order.

The US Hegemon has ruled the world since 1945 relying on an appeal to Universalism and exceptionalism in which its own values are considered to be superior to those of the non-Western World. The collapse of the Soviet Union and the ‘end of history’8 many Westerners assumed it heralded, reinforced the idea that Liberalism should become Universal. By various means, the West has attempted to impose these values on the rest of the World. But there has been resistance within the West itself and in the ‘jungle’9 outside.

Part of this resistance has joined the BRICS movement which promotes particularism rather than Universalism and places emphasis on National Sovereignty which many countries have lost. Liberalism, which has recently become authoritarian, is simply one way of looking at the world and acting within it. It is not the only way. However, liberalism, in its modern form, does not resonate with or appeal to traditionalist societies, of which most of the world is made - including Russia and China.

The fact that the West is so uncompromising, in line with its Woke morality, is disturbing because it eschews negotiation. Therefore, the West must fight Russia until it is defeated or until it imposes defeat on the West. This is the current situation, as I understand it.

To make matters even more complicated, as Trenin points out, the Deep State is asserting itself once more over a US President. Since the Deep State rules regardless of which President thinks he is in power, the World War which has started in recent years will continue over many more, according to Trenin. The Ukraine War will finish at some point though I have no idea when, but the West will ensure that more conflicts will break out somewhere or other. The West has a choice between being an equal player in the emerging Multi-Polar World Order or continuing this fight. I think it will choose the latter, for now. Trenin believes that a nuclear conflict between Russia and NATO countries is becoming ‘increasingly likely’.

In the light of all this, Trenin urges Russia to ensure that its main opponents - i.e. Britain, France and Germany, are made aware that they are vulnerable through actions rather than words. He does not rule out the limited use of nuclear weapons. Thus he appears to be suggesting that NATO countries could be targeted.

I hope this brief summary will be useful to some in understanding the current conflict - whether it is a cold war, a new type of World War - or something else.

Best wishes - Rob

1
And nightmares about nuclear bombs in the distance.
2
The American ‘Man from Uncle’ of 1964-8 featured cooperation between American Napoleon Solo and the Russian Illya Kuryakin who received the most fan mail. Well, David McCallum received it on his behalf.
3
I am sure that someone will correct me on that.
4
The machine gun was the gamechanger in WW1; the tank in WW2 and the drone in WW3.
5
The so called ‘Spider Web’ attacks on 1st June.
6
Stalin had Trotsky’s image ‘air brushed’ from photographs.
7
Trotsky was killed on Stalin’s order by an assassin who used an ‘ice pick’.
8
Political scientist, Francis Fukuyama concluded that the fall of the Soviet Union demonstrated that Capitalism had triumphed as a socio-economic-political model and that no further development was necessary or desirable. The end of history had been achieved - or so he naively believed.
9
Josep Borrell described everything outside of Europe as a jungle.

 
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kherg007

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Nonsense. There are no wars when Donald Trump becomes president.
He's stopped them all in the first 24 hours as he promised.
His strength has caused the israelis to stop and ended the Russian invasion of ukraine.
So the author needs to get his facts straight.

Lol
 

Valcazar

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Nonsense. There are no wars when Donald Trump becomes president.
He's stopped them all in the first 24 hours as he promised.
His strength has caused the israelis to stop and ended the Russian invasion of ukraine.
So the author needs to get his facts straight.

Lol
While I appreciate the joke, if you take away the rhetoric of moral posturing and all the weird references to "woke", there is a case to be made for describing the situation in the world today as a war, even if mostly not a kinetic one.
I haven't been convinced it is the best way to describe things, but it is something I've seen proposed by people I wouldn't dismiss out of hand as crackpots.
 
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niniveh

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While I appreciate the joke, if you take away the rhetoric of moral posturing and all the weird references to "woke", there is a case to be made for describing the situation in the world today as a war, even if mostly not a kinetic one.
I haven't been convinced it is the best way to describe things, but it is something I've seen proposed by people I wouldn't dismiss out of hand as crackpots.
Let's not get distracted by nomenclature and get mired in the nuances of "war". People occupying high office routinely make "crackpot" declarations with seeming impunity. A Vice Admiral incharge of some nuclear armed ICBM facility recently opined that the US could fight a nuclear war and WIN. No reaction from his bosses, military or civilian! Another military brass boasts that he could walk in and occupy Kaleningrad in the twink of an eye. Day in and day out we hear absurd inanities from Ursula v D, Kalla K, Mertz, K. Starmer, E Macron and the inimitable Lindsey Graham. Perhaps they should, one and all, pick up a copy of Annie Jacobsen's "Nuclear War; A Scenario".
John McCain used to hum "bomb, bomb, bomb Iran." It was a "crackpot" ditty, only to "gangrenise" into B2s dropping MOABs on Iran.
Campbell has afforded us a useful insight into Russia's inner circle by posting Trenin's piece. It is worth a read.


12.07.2025 08:01Dmitry Trenin
The Age of Wars: World War III Has Already Begun, But Not Everyone Understands It
Poster in support of SVO


©OLGA MALTSEVA/AFP/EAST NEWS
Many people are now talking about humanity’s drift towards a “third world war,” implying that something reminiscent of the events of the 20th century awaits us. However, war is constantly changing its appearance. It will not come to us as it did in June 1941 (a large-scale military invasion), nor as they feared in October 1962, during the Cuban Missile Crisis (in the form of a massive nuclear strike). In fact, the world war is already here, even if not everyone has noticed and realized it. The pre-war period ended for Russia in 2014, for China in 2017, and for Iran in 2023. Since then, the scale of the war in its modern guise and its intensity have been constantly growing. This is not a “second cold war.” Since 2022, the West’s war against Russia has assumed a decisive character, and the transition of a hot but proxy conflict in Ukraine into a head-on nuclear clash with NATO countries is becoming increasingly likely. Donald Trump's return to the White House opened up the possibility of avoiding such a clash, but by mid-year, thanks to the efforts of European countries and American "hawks," the prospect of a major war had again come dangerously close. The current world war is a combination of several conflicts involving leading powers - the United States and its allies, China, and Russia.

Despite the changing forms, the cause of this world war is traditional: a change in the balance of power in the world. Feeling that the rise of new centers of power (primarily China) and the restoration of Russia as a great power threaten its dominance, the West has gone on the counteroffensive. For America and Europe, this is not the last, but certainly a decisive battle . The West is unable to come to terms with the loss of world hegemony. This is not only about geopolitics. Western ideology (political and economic globalism and socio-cultural posthumanism) organically does not accept diversity, national or civilizational identity and tradition. For the modern West, rejection of universalism means catastrophe - it is not ready for regional status. Therefore, the West, having gathered its considerable resources and counting on its shaken, but still existing technological superiority, is seeking to destroy those whom it has registered as rivals.
Destroy is not an exaggeration. When the previous US president, Joe Biden, used the word in a conversation with Brazilian President Lula da Silva, he was more frank than when his Defense Secretary, Lloyd Austin, spoke of “inflicting a strategic defeat on Russia.” What a war of annihilation is has been demonstrated by Western-backed Israel, first in Gaza, then in Lebanon, and finally in Iran. It is no coincidence that the same scheme was used to destroy targets in the Islamic Republic as in the attack on Russian military airfields on June 1. It is also natural that, apparently, the US and Great Britain are involved in both sabotage operations – Russia, like Iran, China, and North Korea, are considered in Washington and London to be irreconcilable enemies of the West. This means that compromises in the ongoing war are impossible; there can only be temporary lulls .
Two hotbeds of world war are already burning : Eastern Europe and the Middle East. A third has long been visible: East Asia (Taiwan, the Korean Peninsula, the South and East China Seas). Russia is directly involved in the war in Europe; its interests are affected in Iran; and it may be involved in one way or another in the Far East. Three hotbeds are not all. New ones may be created – from the Arctic to Afghanistan, and not only along the perimeter of the country’s borders, but also within it. Instead of previous warfare strategies, which envisaged – along with breaking the enemy’s will and depriving it of the ability to resist – also control over its territory, modern strategies are oriented not toward occupying an enemy state, but toward provoking internal destabilization and chaos.
Russian infantry during World War I

The Third World War will be unlike either the First or the Second. In the photo: Russian infantry during the First World War, 1914
The Print Collector/Vostock Photo
The West's strategy towards Russia - after the failed attempt to "inflict a strategic defeat" - is to wear it down economically and psychologically in war, to destabilize our society, to undermine faith in the country's leadership and its policies, causing new unrest. The enemy assumes that its efforts must culminate in the period of the transfer of supreme power.
As for the methods of achieving this goal , the West does not limit itself (or its proxies) to practically anything. Absolutely everything is permissible. The war has become voluminous. Thanks to the widespread use of increasingly sophisticated drones, the entire territory of any country, any of its facilities and all of its citizens have become vulnerable to pinpoint strikes. Such strikes are carried out on strategic infrastructure and strategic nuclear forces; nuclear complex facilities and nuclear power plants; politicians, scientists, public figures, diplomats (including official negotiators), journalists and, it is important to add, members of their families are murdered. Mass terrorist attacks are organized; residential areas, schools and hospitals come under targeted - not random! - shelling. This is total war in the full sense of the word.

Total warfare is based on dehumanizing the enemy . Foreign victims (including among one's own allies, not to mention proxies) are not taken into account. The enemy's manpower and population are biomass. Only one's own losses matter, since they can affect the level of electoral support for the government. The enemy is absolute evil that must be crushed and destroyed. The attitude towards evil is not a matter of politics, but of morality. Hence, no external respect for the enemy, as was the case during the Cold War. Instead, hatred is whipped up. The enemy leadership is criminal by definition, and the population of enemy countries bears collective responsibility for the leaders they tolerate. International structures (organizations, agencies, tribunals) captured by the West have been transformed into part of a repressive apparatus aimed at persecuting and punishing opponents.
Dehumanization is based on total control of information and methodical and high-tech brainwashing. Rewriting history, including World War II and the Cold War, outright lies about the current state of affairs, banning any information coming from the enemy, persecuting those citizens who doubt the correctness of the single narrative, and branding them as enemy agents turn Western societies into convenient objects for manipulation by the ruling elites. At the same time, the West and its proxies, often using a softer regime in the enemy camp, recruit agents there to provoke internal conflicts - social, political, ideological, ethnic, religious, etc.
The enemy’s strength lies in the cohesion of the world’s globalist (already post-national) elite and the successful ideological processing of the population . The split between the US and the rest of the West under Trump should not be exaggerated. There has been a split in the “Trump group” itself, while Trump is getting closer to his recent critics. The experience of recent years shows that many of the most important steps are being taken by the “deep state” in circumvention of the current president. This is a serious risk factor. The West still has impressive military power and the means to project it globally. It maintains technological leadership, financial hegemony, and dominates the information field. Its theater of war includes everything from sanctions to cyberspace, from biotechnology to the realm of human thought. Its strategy is to hit enemies one by one. The West practiced on Yugoslavia, Iraq, and Libya, for which no one stood up. Now it is in a state of proxy war with Russia. Israel, supported by the West, attacked Iran. The DPRK and China are on the waiting list.
***
The "hot" war in Ukraine is moving towards a direct war of Europe against Russia . In fact, the Europeans have long been deeply involved in the conflict. British and French missiles hit Russian targets, intelligence from NATO countries is transferred to Kiev, Europeans are engaged in combat training of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, joint planning of military, sabotage and terrorist operations. Many EU countries supply Kiev with weapons and ammunition. Ukraine is a tool, a consumable for Europe; the war is not limited to Ukraine and will not end with it. As Ukrainian human resources decrease, NATO/EU will involve the resources of other Eastern European countries - in particular, the Balkans. This should give Europe time to prepare for a war with Russia in the medium term.
A reasonable question: is this preparation for defense or attack? Perhaps some part of the European elites has fallen victim to their own propaganda regarding the “Russian threat,” but for the majority it is a question of the desire to retain power in the conditions of pre-war hysteria. Nevertheless, the dangers coming from the West must be taken seriously. Of course, we should not expect a literal repetition of June 24, 1812 or June 22, 1941. There may be (and certainly will be) provocations from the Baltic to the Black Sea; attempts to open a “second front” in Transnistria, Transcaucasia or elsewhere are likely. Particularly dangerous may be: the transfer of powerful weapons by Europeans to Kiev, which will be claimed to have been manufactured by Ukraine itself; attempts to block the exit from the Gulf of Finland or Kaliningrad; new sabotage against Russia’s strategic facilities. The main thing is that the European elites have once again acquired a goal – to somehow resolve the “Russian question . ”
The capture of Berlin by Russian troops during World War II

The previous World War ended with the defeat and capitulation of the enemy. In the photo: Soviet soldiers near the destroyed Reichstag building in Berlin
Evgeny Khaldey/TASS
In no case should we treat Europeans lightly or condescendingly . Because Europe has failed in many areas, its elite is nervous and mobilizing. Europe’s loss of the ability to think strategically, and its rulers’ loss of prudence and even common sense, makes it more dangerous. The hostility of Europe’s ruling circles to Russia is not a matter of opportunism that will soon be replaced by a “businesslike spirit.” It is not only that Russia, in the image of an enemy, helps the elites unite the European Union and fight domestic competitors. And it is not only about long-standing phobias and grievances. More importantly, Russia is not just a “significant other”; it hinders the restoration of Western (including European) hegemony, represents a civilizational alternative that confuses ordinary Europeans and limits the ability of European elites to exploit the rest of the world. Therefore, a united Europe is seriously aiming to crush Russia.
Therefore, we have a long war ahead of us . There will be no Victory in Ukraine like in 1945. The confrontation will continue in other forms, possibly in the military as well. There will be no stable confrontation (aka peaceful coexistence), as during the Cold War. On the contrary, the next few decades promise to be very dynamic. We will have to continue the struggle for Russia's worthy place in the emerging new order.
***
What to do? There is no way back, and there is no peace in sight. The time has come for decisions, for action. This is not the time for half measures – half measures lead to disaster.
The main thing for us is to strengthen the rear without weakening the front. We need to mobilize forces, but not according to instructions from 50 years ago, but "smartly". If we fight half-heartedly, we will definitely lose. Our strategic advantage - confident political leadership - must remain as such and, most importantly, be "seamlessly" reproduced. We must clearly understand where and what path we are going. Our economic, financial and technological policies must fully correspond to the harsh realities of a long-term confrontation, and demographic policy (from birth rate to migration) must stop and reverse trends that are dangerous for us. Patriotic unity of the population, practical solidarity of all its social groups, strengthening the sense of justice must become the primary concern of the authorities and society.
We need to strengthen external alliances and partnerships. Military alliances in the West (Belarus) and in the East (North Korea) have proven themselves well. But we do not have a similar ally in the south. We need to work on strengthening the southern tier of our geopolitics. We must soberly and carefully analyze the results and consequences of the war between Israel, on the one hand, and Iran and its regional allies, on the other. The enemy, acting as a single bloc, is betting on destroying enemies one by one. From this, we and our partners need to draw an obvious conclusion - not by copying Western formats, but by achieving closer coordination and effective interaction.

It is possible and necessary to play a tactical game with the Trump administration, fortunately it has already brought some tactical results (for example, it helped reduce the US involvement in the Ukrainian conflict). At the same time, it is important to remember: tactics are not strategy. The willingness to engage in dialogue is complacent for many, inspiring dreams of a quick return to the “bright past”. The American political elite, on the contrary, is still generally hostile towards Russia. There will be no new détente with the US, and the previous one ended badly. Yes, the process of reformatting the American foreign policy strategy from “imperial” to “great power” will probably continue after Trump leaves office. We must keep this in mind and use it in practical policy.
The European ringleaders of the fight against Russia – England, France, Germany – need to be made to understand (not only in words) that they are vulnerable and will not be able to remain unscathed in the event of a new escalation of the Ukrainian conflict. The same message must be addressed to the “first hour activists” of the anti-Russian war – the Finns, Poles, and Balts. Their provocations must be immediately and powerfully countered. Our goal is to instill (saving) fear in the enemy, to knock him down a peg or two, to make him think and stop.
In general, you should act according to your own choice and logic. Act boldly, not necessarily in a mirror-like manner. And not necessarily in response. If a clash is inevitable, you will have to strike preemptively. At first, with conventional means. If necessary, after careful consideration, with special means, i.e. nuclear. Nuclear deterrence can be not only passive, but also active, including the limited use of nuclear weapons. The experience of the war in Ukraine shows that decision-making centers should not enjoy immunity. There, we were greatly “in arrears” with strikes, which created a false impression in the enemy about the level of our determination. In the struggle that was imposed on us, we must be focused on victory, i.e. the complete destruction of the enemy’s plans.
We need not only to penetrate the enemy's air defense in Ukraine (and, if necessary, in other places), but also to break through the information dome behind which the West has taken refuge. Post-Soviet Russia has refused to interfere in the internal affairs of other countries. In wartime, this is an unaffordable luxury. We should not count on the traditional right or "normal" left forces coming to power somewhere and everything will work out on its own. We need to undermine the united front of our opponents from within, play on the contradictions of interests and ambitions of different states, forces and individuals. Europe is not homogeneous. Along with the leadership cell (England, France, Germany) and a group of activist provocateurs (Finland, Poland, the Baltics), there are dissidents (Hungary, Slovakia - while the current governments are in power there), the number of which can increase (for example, to the size of the former Austria-Hungary), as well as a fairly large "passive" from among the countries of Southern Europe (Italy, Spain, Greece, Cyprus). In general, the field for information and political work is large. NATO and the EU are hostile organizations for us, the OSCE is mostly useless, but we need to actively offer dialogue to all sober-minded forces in Europe, create coalitions for life, for peace, for humanity. Russia is not going to "abduct" Europe, but we will have to pacify it.
Dmitry Trenin – Director of the Institute of World Military Economy and Strategy of the National Research University Higher School of Economics
 

kherg007

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This is a Russian pov btw. What Putin wants out there. So take it into account.
 

Valcazar

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Let's not get distracted by nomenclature and get mired in the nuances of "war".
The nuances of war are the whole point here.
When does a conflict become a "war"?
Does any attack on a hegemon automatically make something a "world war"?
What does the changing face of financial and cyber conflict mean in identifying a war?

Both of the articles posted engage with these sorts of questions, so I don't know why you are against that when you posted one of them!
 

Valcazar

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This is a Russian pov btw. What Putin wants out there. So take it into account.
Oh, absolutely.
Both seem to be.
But Russia admitting the situation is a war is, in and of itself, interesting, even if they want to downplay their part in it.
 

Insidious Von

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The King of Kings has Putin's best interest at heart.

However his health may not hold and JD Vance may not be strong enough to sway the MAGA horde to his side. The Republicans will look for the best possible candidate to keep them in power, Dr. Death could become President. We are very close to WW III.

 
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nottyboi

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The biggest threat is the seeming lack of fear of nuclear weapons in the West. I can see if things get hot, Russia may be forced to do a reminder demonstration by striking a city in the UK or something of that nature. You hear absurd rhetoric like "the Russian nukes will probably malfunction". Meanwhile they have 1500 deployed and 4500 in reserve. People really seem to have forgotten how powerful nukes are. Hiroshima was less powerful then a modern tactical nuke at about 20 KT. The latest Russian missiles have 10-15 warhead with about 700kt each. That is 35x the power of Hiroshima on 15 different targets ..from `1 freakin missile
 

Valcazar

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The biggest threat is the seeming lack of fear of nuclear weapons in the West. I can see if things get hot, Russia may be forced to do a reminder demonstration by striking a city in the UK or something of that nature. You hear absurd rhetoric like "the Russian nukes will probably malfunction". Meanwhile they have 1500 deployed and 4500 in reserve. People really seem to have forgotten how powerful nukes are. Hiroshima was less powerful then a modern tactical nuke at about 20 KT. The latest Russian missiles have 10-15 warhead with about 700kt each. That is 35x the power of Hiroshima on 15 different targets ..from `1 freakin missile
That's an interesting argument.
Putin doesn't fear nuclear weapons to not use them first as a "demonstration"?

Pretty terrifying.
 

nottyboi

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That's an interesting argument.
Putin doesn't fear nuclear weapons to not use them first as a "demonstration"?

Pretty terrifying.
Well he does, that is why the Russians developed Oreshnik, which is a strategic non-nuclear weapon. It can be used as a first strike weapons without destroying the planet. But if a nuclear war seems inevitable, it may make sense to take out an isolated NATO ally and then see if anyone has the desire to continue.
 

Valcazar

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Well he does, that is why the Russians developed Oreshnik, which is a strategic non-nuclear weapon. It can be used as a first strike weapons without destroying the planet. But if a nuclear war seems inevitable, it may make sense to take out an isolated NATO ally and then see if anyone has the desire to continue.
If the problem really is that the goons in charge of the US are willing to use nukes casually, then Putin gains nothing by going first.
It would just encourage them.

That's the problem here, both Trump and Putin think nuclear weapons can be used "tactically".
 

nottyboi

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If the problem really is that the goons in charge of the US are willing to use nukes casually, then Putin gains nothing by going first.
It would just encourage them.

That's the problem here, both Trump and Putin think nuclear weapons can be used "tactically".
Nope Putin is under no illusions, that is why they developed Oreshnik, To give Russia a non nuclear strategic option. A demonstration would be a warhead blowing up in the gulf of Mexico or Baltic sea. with appropriate notice.
 
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Valcazar

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Nope Putin is under no illusions, that is why they developed Oreshnik, To give Russia a non nuclear strategic option. A demonstration would be a warhead blowing up in the gulf of Mexico or Baltic sea. with appropriate notice.
You're the one who said he would demonstrate "by striking a city in the UK".
Don't chicken out now.
If you don't think a nuclear strike is a deterrent, why pretend Oreshnik is?
Oreshnik would just prove the West needs to strike with a nuclear weapon to counter it.

We'd all like Putin to become less warlike, but as with Trump, it isn't something to rationally expect.
 

Frankfooter

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Nope Putin is under no illusions, that is why they developed Oreshnik, To give Russia a non nuclear strategic option. A demonstration would be a warhead blowing up in the gulf of Mexico or Baltic sea. with appropriate notice.
Oreshnik is just another ballistic missile.
It has nothing to do with deterrence and more with Putin understanding of MAD.
 

nottyboi

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Oreshnik is just another ballistic missile.
It has nothing to do with deterrence and more with Putin understanding of MAD.
Its not just a ballistic missile its a ballistic missile with a very unique warhead that can is non nuclear and can cause nuclear like effects in a radius much smaller then a tactical nuclear weapon.
 

nottyboi

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You're the one who said he would demonstrate "by striking a city in the UK".
Don't chicken out now.
If you don't think a nuclear strike is a deterrent, why pretend Oreshnik is?
Oreshnik would just prove the West needs to strike with a nuclear weapon to counter it.

We'd all like Putin to become less warlike, but as with Trump, it isn't something to rationally expect.
they may, the UK has several reasons to be a good target. 1 the are an island, 2 it is the source of a lot of acrimony against russia, 3, Their nukes are leased from the USA so they cannot really launch them unless they get US permission and 4 its an island
 

nottyboi

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OK, its very special ballistic missile.
There is a great variance in ballistic missiles. From some that only have a few hundred km in range, to those that can strike any point on the planet from any direction. So saying "its a ballistic missile" is not really a fair description of its capabilities.
 

oil&gas

Well-known member
Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
The biggest threat is the seeming lack of fear of nuclear weapons in the West. ...
...........
NATO-Europe also exhibits a seeming absence of fear of what massive
death and destruction conventional warfare could bring on them.

On the surface of it Europe may appear to be apprehensive of
nuclear attacks from Russia. In reality dinky non-nuclear missile
attacks aimed to take out a handful of small towns in France, a
few tens of hydro dams in Sweden and one or two Norwegian oil
platforms in the North Sea is all it takes to Pacify Europe. Apparently
Europe has shown no fear of the consequence of further escalation
of the proxy war. Some day Putin may see the benefit of having
North Korean troops stationed along the border with Finland.
 
Last edited:
Ashley Madison
Toronto Escorts