Israel announces a unilateral cease fire

[fuji]

The state of Israel was created by Zionists to perpetuate global warfare.

Right there you identified yourself as a bigot and a nutcase.

The focus is and always will be on the Zionist state of Israel and the illegal occupation of Palestinian land.

I'm not aware of any illegal occupation of Palestinian land.

Palestinians cannot be policed by the Israeli military. Full Stop!

Change the word "cannot" to "should not" and I'd agree: Everyone knows the world would be better if there were some responsible government in Gaza--for example, an Egyptian government would be a suitable solution.

 

[fuji]

Relative to other conflicts in the world (and that can be the only standard) IDF has used far less force to achieve its military goal of stopping rocket attacks on its territory than was used in other conflicts for lesser objectives.

Here are some examples:

-- The invasion of Afghanistan relative to the military objective of stopping attacks like 9/11

-- The bombing of Hiroshima relative to the military objective of destroying a Japanese army HQ

Civilians get killed in wars and it's very easy to cry "too many!" but a fair and objective analysis would compare what the IDF did to other military operations and see whether IDF is using more force than is ordinarily used under similar circumstances.

That rule would apply if, say, in order to stop a rocket attack IDF firebombed the entire Gaza strip and killed everyone. That would be using far more foce than was justified to achieve the military objective of taking out a rocket launcher.

Killing only a few hundred people to stop rocket attacks is very, very favourable compared to most other military operations in history and is nowhere anywhere even remotely close to the line, even assuming the principle of "proportionality" as you call it applied--which it doesn't.

As for anonymous human rights officials I'd take what j-random "human rights agencies" say with a grain of salt because the exact same agencies have said the exact same things about so many conflicts that I think they're essentially crying wolf.

Their view is, "OMG! War! It's a crime!", that accurately captures HRW's take on practically every conflict for example. UN HRC (and things like the ICC that it's generated) on the other hand is essentially driven by an Islamic agenda and its anonymous "officials" tend to be spokesmen for states hostile to Israel.

 

[Rockslinger]

Any idea how long this ceasefire will last? Hamas said they are re-arming (to what end?). How long before they start launching new rockets?

 

[basketcase]

Not all Israelis are Jews, not all Jews are Israelis.

Not all Jews are Zionists, not all Zionists are Jews.

Ok so far.

Not all Israelis are Zionists, all Zionists are Israelis.

So zionists don't exist outside of Israel?

The state of Israel was created by Zionists to perpetuate global warfare.

I think you've been sniffing too much glue. Israel was created as a homeland for Jews. The only reason for warfare is that all of the Arab states at the time, many of them now, and many Arab individuals and organizations now don't want that.

Arabs do not hate Jews

This is likely true for many but not for all. Judging by some of the signs and slogans thrown around even in pleasant Toronto's anti-Israel protests, it's pretty evident that there are enough Arabs indoctrinated to hate Jews.

 

[landscaper]

The only way to get a truce is if the USA first leans on Israel to stop murdering non-combatants, and then begins a phased withdrawal of financial and military support.

A measure of the uncaring incompetence of the Israeli military machine is that over a third of those it slaughters are children. Even suicide bombers are more discriminating!

Just wondering in the back of my tiny little mind.........

WHAT PLANET ARE YOU CURRENTLY RESIDING ON?

Suicide bombers, the people who blow up busses and restaurants regardless of who is in them at any given time.

Suicide bombers who use mentally challenged people and children to carry remote detonated bombs into built up areas.

Suicide bombers who drive a car with children in the back in child seats to get through a check point and park and abandon the car WITH THE CHILDREN STILL IN IT to detonate .

Those are the discriminating freedom fighters you are refering to.

Lord save us from the kind hearted

 

[basketcase]

Any idea how long this ceasefire will last? Hamas said they are re-arming (to what end?). How long before they start launching new rockets?

Hamas has also declared victory in the battle (it was their leader in Syria claiming it but ....).

The truce is supposed to last for a week during which time Israel will be withdrawing their troops. Hamas has already stated that it will continue attacks if Israel doesn't give them what they want after a week.

 

[basketcase]

Except they were saying things like "death to Jews", not just death to Israel. That's just a pathetic as people advocating killing all Muslims after 9/11.

 

[landscaper]

Hamas has also declared victory in the battle (it was their leader in Syria claiming it but ....).

The truce is supposed to last for a week during which time Israel will be withdrawing their troops. Hamas has already stated that it will continue attacks if Israel doesn't give them what they want after a week.

Isreal's been giving them what they asked for for the last couple of weeks how much more do they want?

 

[basketcase]

israeli Action speaks louder than words .

So in one post you say Jews are not all Israelis but you accept that all Jews should be threatened for Israel's actions?

 

[Rockslinger]

The truce is supposed to last for a week

Ok, can we also declare a one week ceasefire on this Board and discuss other matters of import?
Hey, what do you guys think of John Torys' chances of winning a seat at Queen's Park?

 

[basketcase]

Just for the record (and so never and the like try to revise history once again as to who broke ceasefires),

IAF bombs Gaza target after 8 mortar shells fired at Israel

The Israel Air Force on Tuesday evening bombed a target in the Gaza Strip used earlier in the day Palestinian militants to fire eight mortar shells at Israel.

Militants on Tuesday also opened fire at Israel Defense Forces soldiers in Gaza in two separate incidents, in the first violation of a shaky cease-fire in the coastal strip that ended Israel's 3-week offensive against Hamas.
...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057066.html

 

[basketcase]

While we're at it,

UN Chief: Hamas rocket attacks are 'appalling and unacceptable'
...
During his visit to Sderot Ban classified Palestinian militants' projectiles as indiscriminate weapons and Hamas attacks are violations of basic humanitarian law.
...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057132.html

 

[*d*]

Relative to other conflicts in the world (and that can be the only standard) IDF has used far less force to achieve its military goal of stopping rocket attacks on its territory than was used in other conflicts for lesser objectives.

Here are some examples:

-- The invasion of Afghanistan relative to the military objective of stopping attacks like 9/11

-- The bombing of Hiroshima relative to the military objective of destroying a Japanese army HQ

Civilians get killed in wars and it's very easy to cry "too many!" but a fair and objective analysis would compare what the IDF did to other military operations and see whether IDF is using more force than is ordinarily used under similar circumstances.

That rule would apply if, say, in order to stop a rocket attack IDF firebombed the entire Gaza strip and killed everyone. That would be using far more foce than was justified to achieve the military objective of taking out a rocket launcher.

Killing only a few hundred people to stop rocket attacks is very, very favourable compared to most other military operations in history and is nowhere anywhere even remotely close to the line, even assuming the principle of "proportionality" as you call it applied--which it doesn't.

Opinion, opinion, opinion. There's been lots of successful military disputes settled in history with few casualties. So please don't attempt to trivialise the deaths of 600+ Gaza civilians. Proportionality(which does apply since its one of the principles of just war theory) and other humanitarian laws that are in suspect of violations are for the courts and governing parties to investigate and judge. I'll listen to them over the poor judgement of someone who doesn't even know the principle of proportionality. For now we have lots of human rights groups(and not just politically bias ones) calling for an investigation of possible Israeli war crimes. These groups are knowledgeable to just-war theory and therefore I think these investigations should happen.

As for anonymous human rights officials I'd take what j-random "human rights agencies" say with a grain of salt because the exact same agencies have said the exact same things about so many conflicts that I think they're essentially crying wolf.

Their view is, "OMG! War! It's a crime!", that accurately captures HRW's take on practically every conflict for example. UN HRC (and things like the ICC that it's generated) on the other hand is essentially driven by an Islamic agenda and its anonymous "officials" tend to be spokesmen for states hostile to Israel.

That's just more bias opinion. There are many groups without your so called Islamic agenda(as if Islamic agendas are always hostile towards Israel) that are calling for an investigation of possible Israeli war crimes.

 

[fuji]

There's been lots of successful military disputes settled in history with few casualties. So please don't attempt to trivialise the deaths of 600+ Gaza civilians.

There have also been lots where there were many casualties. The point is that by comparason with other wars the number of casualties in Gaza was very small compared to the military objectives.

Proportionality(which does apply since its one of the principles of just war theory) and other humanitarian laws that are in suspect of violations are for the courts and governing parties to investigate and judge.

Name a court that applies that principle and which has jurisdiction ove Israel. The GC's do not include that principal and the ICC has no jurisdiction.

For now we have lots of human rights groups(and not just politically bias ones) calling for an investigation of possible Israeli war crimes.

You're over-stating the case. The more reputable agencies are simply asserting that there should be an investigation to find out what happened and not accusing Israel of war crimes.

The less reputable, more shrill ones are making unwarranted assumptions that there were war crimes and basing their public claims on those unwarranted assumptions.

For example when a hospital is hit there is a question of why it was hit: Was it an accident? Or was it intentional? If it was intentional, was there enemy fire coming from the hospital or not?

Quite literally the human rights groups DO NOT KNOW the answers to those questions. The more reputable ones are asking for the answers. The less reputable ones are making the unwarranted assumption that the hospital was hit intentionally and that there was no enemy fire coming from it.

There are many groups without your so called Islamic agenda(as if Islamic agendas are always hostile towards Israel) that are calling for an investigation of possible Israeli war crimes.

I am calling for an investigation too: I think anytime a civilian target like a hospital gets hit in a war that an investigation is warranted, just like every time the police kill a civilian SIU investigates to see what happened there.

That is what the reputable agencies are calling for and it is a good idea--there should ALWAYS be an investigation in these cases.

Only less reputable sources though are calling it a "possible war crime" and only the most biased ones are asserting that it actually is a war crime.

 

[Gyaos]

Good job in comparing 9/11 to Gaza massacre. The only difference is that this time it is Zionist terrorists.

Use of the word "Zionist" proves you are a racist.

Gyaos.

 

[basketcase]

I love articles like the one in todays star talking about the 'truce'.

 

[*d*]

There have also been lots where there were many casualties. The point is that by comparason with other wars the number of casualties in Gaza was very small compared to the military objectives.

This's simply a stupid argument. One could also say, looking at other conflicts, this is not a small number of casualties for such a military objective. I'm more concerned about how those casualties happened within the rules of jus in bello.

Name a court that applies that principle and which has jurisdiction ove Israel. The GC's do not include that principal and the ICC has no jurisdiction.

As I said before the ICC has jurisdiction over Israel if so sanctioned by the UNSC. More importantly, Israel also can voluntarily allow the ICC to investigate if they are so confident of their innocence.

You're over-stating the case. The more reputable agencies are simply asserting that there should be an investigation to find out what happened and not accusing Israel of war crimes.

The less reputable, more shrill ones are making unwarranted assumptions that there were war crimes and basing their public claims on those unwarranted assumptions.

For example when a hospital is hit there is a question of why it was hit: Was it an accident? Or was it intentional? If it was intentional, was there enemy fire coming from the hospital or not?

Quite literally the human rights groups DO NOT KNOW the answers to those questions. The more reputable ones are asking for the answers. The less reputable ones are making the unwarranted assumption that the hospital was hit intentionally and that there was no enemy fire coming from it.

And I can simply say you're under-stating the case. These large numbers of human rights agencies(of all flavours) wouldn't be calling for war crime investigations if they weren't suspicious.

You trivialise the number of Gaza casualties and the outcry of so many human rights agencies while at the same time you emphasize Hamas's sins. I think you're just bias.

 

[gryfin]

I love articles like the one in todays star talking about the 'truce'.

Yes, I think we all feel the same way after reading this article that Israel's been breaking the truce for a number of days.

"Gunboats have been firing off Gaza's shore for several days despite a cease-fire that has ended a three-week offensive against Gaza rocket operations aimed at Israel."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057758.html