Israel firm on refugees after Bush dismays Arabs

WoodPeckr

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This does not bode well for peace propects. In fact it may propell them to war. I almost looks like Israel owns Dubya from the tone of his imbecilic statements. Oh that's right, the neocons both here and there still seem hell bent on more war(s).
...And then Israel acts surprised when rockets attacks are launched against them....:rolleyes:


Israel firm on refugees after Bush dismays Arabs

By Alastair Macdonald and Adam Entous
2 hours, 27 minutes ago

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel ruled out all debate on letting Palestinian refugees return in any peace deal, as U.S. President George W. Bush ended a visit on Friday that left Arabs dismayed by his outspoken support for Israel's "chosen people."

As Bush flew out after three days of celebrations of Israel's 60th anniversary, an Israeli government spokesman said Palestinian insistence on the right of return for 4.5 million refugees and their descendants was "the ultimate deal breaker."

Six months into negotiations sponsored by Bush in the hope of a deal before he leaves the White House, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's spokesman used some of the toughest Israeli language yet to insist that President Mahmoud Abbas abandon 60-year-old refugee claims if he wants to establish a Palestinian state.

"This demand, which does not exist under international law, for right of return, is the ultimate deal breaker. You cannot have peace and this demand at the same time," Mark Regev said.

Some 700,000 people, half the Arab population of Palestine in May 1948, fled or were driven from their homes when Israel was created. Letting them and their families live in Israel now would undermine its nature as a Jewish state, Israel argues.

It also disputes the legal basis of the right of the return first set out in a United Nations resolution of December 1948.

PALESTINIAN DISMAY

Bush, who steps down in January, made little reference to the peace negotiations or to the Palestinians at all while in Israel. Many Palestinians were dismayed by a speech to Israel's parliament in which he spoke of a shared divine providence uniting American Christians like himself with Israel's Jews.

Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat told Reuters: "He should have told the Israelis that, 1 mile from where he was speaking, there is a nation that has lived in disaster for 60 years. He should have told the Israelis no one can be free at the expense of others. He missed this opportunity and we are disappointed."

Bush called Israel a homeland for God's "chosen people" and pledged Washington would remain its "best friend in the world."

As Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip and in camps abroad held protests on the 60th anniversary of their exile from cities and farmlands that are now in Israel, Bush spoke of European Jews in 1948 "arriving here in the desert."

In the Palestinian newspaper al-Ayyam, columnist Samih Shabib wrote: "Bush is blind to the right of return.

"The U.S. administration's attitude towards Israel inherently promotes hostility and deepens hatred towards the United States and its policy. Is this hostility, and its consequences, in America's interest? I don't think so."

Olmert's spokesman Regev acknowledged the suffering of Palestinian refugees but insisted Abbas must abandon their claims if he wanted a Palestinian state, 60 years after Arabs rejected a U.N. plan to partition Palestine into two states.

"We are not insensitive to suffering that the Palestinians or the Arabs have gone through," he told reporters.

But he added: "The so-called right of return is antithetical to a two-state solution ... I would question someone's commitment to peace and reconciliation if they believe that the so-called right of return must be implemented."

LITTLE PROGRESS

There was no immediate reaction from Palestinian officials.

Though there have been few obvious signs of progress toward a peace deal, both Olmert and Abbas have pressing domestic reasons for presenting some sort of accord, even if many analysts believe both are too weak at home to implement it.

Some see Abbas's reference to proposals for an "agreed and just" settlement of the refugee issue as a sign he might accept, despite strong resistance among his people, a deal that gives a few people a chance to recover homes and compensates the others.

In return, though again in the face of solid domestic opposition, Olmert may be ready to let the Palestinians have part of Jerusalem for a capital and give up other occupied land.
 

Aardvark154

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It seems difficult to believe that anyone interested in or more importantly involved in the peace process in the Holy Land doesn't realize that the 'right of return' is and remains a deal breaker for the Israelis. Indeed the whole Clinton Administration Peace Deal which was literally hours from public announcement, was scuttled at the last minute when Yasser Arafat insisted on inserting a 'right of return, which the Palestinian Negotiators had acknowledged they were never going to get and had dropped their demand for. Even as the article states it is far more realisitic to press for compenstation by Israel for Arab property seized.

I realize that theology is not the strong suit of many on TERB, but acting like statements such as the Jews are God's "chosen people" are somehow wild-eyed merely shows how uninformed many people are.

Far more troubling and interesting is the exploration of how U.S. Protestants of the President’s viewpoint, in particular millennialists square their view of Israel with the fact that almost all Christians in the Holy Land are Arabs and that the number of Christians in the West Bank and Jerusalem has declined dramatically since 1968 due to emigration.
 

gryfin

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Aardvark154 said:
It seems difficult to believe that anyone interested in or more importantly involved in the peace process in the Holy Land doesn't realize that the 'right of return' is and remains a deal breaker for the Israelis. Indeed the whole Clinton Administration Peace Deal which was literally hours from public announcement, was scuttled at the last minute when Yasser Arafat insisted on inserting a 'right of return, which the Palestinian Negotiators had acknowledged they were never going to get and had dropped their demand for. Even as the article states it is far more realisitic to press for compenstation by Israel for Arab property seized.

I realize that theology is not the strong suit of many on TERB, but acting like statements such as the Jews are God's "chosen people" are somehow wild-eyed merely shows how uninformed many people are.

Far more troubling and interesting is the exploration of how U.S. Protestants of the President’s viewpoint, in particular millennialists square their view of Israel with the fact that almost all Christians in the Holy Land are Arabs and that the number of Christians in the West Bank and Jerusalem has declined dramatically since 1968 due to emigration.
Why would people returning to the homes they own and lived in be a problem? I don't remember them giving their property away?
 

scouser1

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gryfin said:
Why would people returning to the homes they own and lived in be a problem? I don't remember them giving their property away?
because then the Zionist wet dream of a purely Jewish state would be gone, never mind the fact that the majority would probably accept compensation rather than go back, while the few that would go back would be returning to villages and homes that are now empty, no Jew would actually lose their home, but if you listen to the rah rah Israel crowd along with the extreme right wing welfare case Jews in Israel, who try to convince the world that those returning would immediately set up Auschwitz and Treblinka again.
 

Aardvark154

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gryfin said:
Why would people returning to the homes they own and lived in be a problem? I don't remember them giving their property away?
So taken to it's logical extension then Sephardic Jews should have the right to take property away from Spaniards because their ancestors never gave the property away in 1492?
 

Aardvark154

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scouser1 said:
because then the Zionist
This opportunity was there in 1947 with the partition plan. Who was it that refused to agree to the same and then attacked Israel? Although I dislike sports analogies this sounds rather like I don't like how the first half turned out, I demand that we play it again.
 

landscaper

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Aardvark154 said:
So taken to it's logical extension then Sephardic Jews should have the right to take property away from Spaniards because their ancestors never gave the property away in 1492?
Can't be doing that it will totally ruin his thesis facts are horrible that way
 

basketcase

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gryfin said:
Why would people returning to the homes they own and lived in be a problem? I don't remember them giving their property away?
I believe it was Livni who stated recently that Israel would have no problem letting the '48 refugees back in but would only give financial compensation to their descendants.
 

scouser1

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basketcase said:
I believe it was Livni who stated recently that Israel would have no problem letting the '48 refugees back in but would only give financial compensation to their descendants.
uhuh sure is this the same Livni whose daddy was a high ranking member of the Irgun who chased out the Palestinians to the Arab borders and then those who fell had a bullet to the head implanted.
 

basketcase

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scouser1 said:
uhuh sure is this the same Livni whose daddy was a high ranking member of the Irgun who chased out the Palestinians to the Arab borders and then those who fell had a bullet to the head implanted.
You can't expect some kind of peace if you insist on blaming people for their ancestors' actions (or with your incredibly narrow view on historical events).
 

slowandeasy

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scouser1 said:
because then the Zionist wet dream of a purely Jewish state would be gone, never mind the fact that the majority would probably accept compensation rather than go back, while the few that would go back would be returning to villages and homes that are now empty, no Jew would actually lose their home, but if you listen to the rah rah Israel crowd along with the extreme right wing welfare case Jews in Israel, who try to convince the world that those returning would immediately set up Auschwitz and Treblinka again.
Scouser, as you say, most would accept a financial settlement, it makes you wonder why the insistence on a "right of return".

From an outsiders perspective, it seems obvious that the insistence on the "right of return" is because it is a dealbreaker. What country is going to open its' borders to a potential of 4.5 million hostile migrants?
 

persis

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Aardvark154 said:
It seems difficult to believe that anyone interested in or more importantly involved in the peace process in the Holy Land doesn't realize that the 'right of return' is and remains a deal breaker for the Israelis. Indeed the whole Clinton Administration Peace Deal which was literally hours from public announcement, was scuttled at the last minute when Yasser Arafat insisted on inserting a 'right of return, which the Palestinian Negotiators had acknowledged they were never going to get and had dropped their demand for. Even as the article states it is far more realisitic to press for compenstation by Israel for Arab property seized.

I realize that theology is not the strong suit of many on TERB, but acting like statements such as the Jews are God's "chosen people" are somehow wild-eyed merely shows how uninformed many people are.

Far more troubling and interesting is the exploration of how U.S. Protestants of the President’s viewpoint, in particular millennialists square their view of Israel with the fact that almost all Christians in the Holy Land are Arabs and that the number of Christians in the West Bank and Jerusalem has declined dramatically since 1968 due to emigration.
maybe this video put some lite on the issue of whose land and of... God's "chosen people"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxvO_Z0bFmI&feature=related
 

persis

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basketcase said:
Weren't you just complaining in another thread about reliable sources?
Yeah I know..it is all part of conspiracy against Zionist!
 

scouser1

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the right of return is one that all refugees are entitled to enshrined by the UN Charter which last I checked Eretz Israel was a signatory to, you cant take rights away from people after you give it to them.

As for Livni, it was just a point to prove that she is cut from the same cloth as the Irgun and the founders of the Jewish state.
 

basketcase

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The standard definition of refugees (as defined by the UN) would include the 700,000 or so from '48 which Israel has said it will take. It won't take the descendants of Palestinian refugees even though the UN have given them special status they refuse to descendants of all other refugees (such as the millions of children of refugees in Canada). As Ardvark pointed out, this insistance it is simply another excuse for the Palestinians not to make peace with Israel.

Your logic on Livni is quite pathetic. If this was acceptable, all Germans would be called Nazis, all Russian called Stalinists, and Americans would be considered British, all because one of their anscetors was somehow involved. Most sane people judge others based on who they are, not what their parents might have been (but you often seem to defy this category).
 

scouser1

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basketcase said:
The standard definition of refugees (as defined by the UN) would include the 700,000 or so from '48 which Israel has said it will take. It won't take the descendants of Palestinian refugees even though the UN have given them special status they refuse to descendants of all other refugees (such as the millions of children of refugees in Canada). As Ardvark pointed out, this insistance it is simply another excuse for the Palestinians not to make peace with Israel.

and please tell us when and where did Israel exactly say they would allow 700 thousand Palestinian refugees to return to their homes?? the whole exercise of the right wing in Israel is on several fronts, stall as long as possible any peace deal because that would be the nail in the coffin for their Zionist dream, keep building the settlements and hope the welfare cases that live in them keep multiplying, and go on and on about how there really isnt anyone make peace with because they all want Jews pushed into the sea.
 

Don

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If Isreal has a brain, they would not allow refugees to return. ANy thought of that happening is insane. Any non-native Canadian who thinks otherwise should leave their homes and give them back to the First Nations people who were here first. Thought so.
 

Aardvark154

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persis said:
maybe this video put some lite on the issue of whose land and of... God's "chosen people"
It doesn't shed much light on that for me. It certainly does, however, reinforce the idea that seemingly every culture and people have horses asses among their number.
 
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