Israel

[onthebottom]

As the Anti-Semitic thread approaches 20 pages it occurs to me (in an optimistic moment) that we may all agree on the ultimate resolution to the Israel situation.

Is there anyone on this board who would not find the following a just solution:

· Use of 1967 boarders
· Palestinians would be provided a State that includes the West Bank, Gaza Strip and pre-1967 portion of Jerusalem.
· Arab nations would sign a treaty with Israel stating it’s right to exist.
· Palestinians would forgo any right of return
· The E.U., Israel and US would split equally a payment to Arab families that were displaced in 1946 to compensate them for forgoing their right of return
· All Jewish settlers would have the right to move to Israel or become citizens of Palestine (or whatever the new State was called)
· The UN would police the boarders between the states with Blue-Helmets for a period of 10 years.

Anyone?

OTB

 

[tompeepin]

Palestinians would forgo any right of return

All Jewish settlers would have the right to move to Israel or become citizens of Palestine (or whatever the new State was called)

OTB

If the Jewish settlers could live in Palestine, why could the Palestinians not live in Isreal?

Now try and get everyone to go along with your plan.

And Isreal should build a wall on the Green Line established after the 1948-49 war. Then there is no need for UN forces.

 

[onthebottom]

Re: Re: Israel

If the Jewish settlers could live in Palestine, why could the Palestinians not live in Isreal?

Clearly there are Palestinians living in Isreal, and are citizens of that country. I don't know that anyone would favor a forced move of those people?

OTB

 

[gryfin]

I'd settle for that as long as Israel signed a treaty recognizing the right of Palestine to exist as an independant state with all the powers that accrue to a state, i.e. control of their borders and the right to defend themselves.

I'm afraid none of this will happen as long at the imbalance of power is so stark. I also don't know how you are going to avoid further suicide bombers in the meantime. One way of removing some of the causes of suicide bombers would be to bring Israeli leaders who authorize violiations of the Geneva Convention to justice. This would let the Palestinians know that their plight is recognized and they don't have to take justice into their own hands. This would help eliminate the absolute despair and helplessness that fuels suicide bombers. It's worth a try if it will save lives on both sides.

 

[onthebottom]

I'd settle for that as long as Israel signed a treaty recognizing the right of Palestine to exist as an independant state with all the powers that accrue to a state, i.e. control of their borders and the right to defend themselves.

I'm afraid none of this will happen as long at the imbalance of power is so stark. I also don't know how you are going to avoid further suicide bombers in the meantime. One way of removing some of the causes of suicide bombers would be to bring Israeli leaders who authorize violiations of the Geneva Convention to justice. This would let the Palestinians know that their plight is recognized and they don't have to take justice into their own hands. This would help eliminate the absolute despair and helplessness that fuels suicide bombers. It's worth a try if it will save lives on both sides.

Or the US could supply Palestine with M1A1s (may be a couple hundred) and some Apache helicopters. That would keep everyone in their own yard.

I guess I though that implicit in this agreement would be that the direct parties (Israel and Palestine) would be agreeing to the rights of the other - good point.

You know, if Gryfin and I can agree on this in principal (bet we could hammer the details out over a pint or two) then anyone ought to be able to agree.

OTB

 

[Drunken Master]

Well, it's less than encouraging that you manage to begin this attempt at reconciliation with the hackneyed "Anti-Extreme Right Wing Israeli Politics = Anti-Semitism" line, but your plan is worth discussing - though it does raise some interesting problems:

1. What kind of state would the new "Palestine" be? After years of misrule and kleptocracy by Israeli and Palestinian authorities, and a non-existant economy, what basis is there for a real nation? Wouldn't we just be create the conditions for yet another "failed state" in the Middle East? How does this serve the Palestinian people?

2. Only a massive level of compensation is going to be able to create viable lives for the millions of Palestians currently living in refugee camps. And where are they going to go? Are cities just going to spring up where the camps were? Doesn't the prospect of many Palestinians - who have forgone the right of return - living in other countries around the borders of the Palestinian state lead to possibility of further conflict?

3. Do we really want to flood this region with more weapons in an effort to keep the peace? Won't we be creating a mini Cold War-like Balance of Terror funded by the major Western powers?

 

[ocean976124]

· The UN would police the boarders between the states with Blue-Helmets for a period of 10 years.

The UN police that boarder? LMAO!!!!
And just what exactly are they going to actually do? I can see it now: "Hey, stop right there or we'll fire off a strongly worded letter to your government!"

 

[scouser1]

Re: Re: Israel

The UN police that boarder? LMAO!!!!
And just what exactly are they going to actually do? I can see it now: "Hey, stop right there or we'll fire off a strongly worded letter to your government!"

OTB the solution you propose is exactly what the majority of Palestinians and Israelis would settle for, the problem becomes the settlers in the West Bank and Gaza, they number about 400 thousand, are a powerful voting block in Israeli politics and really are just welfare cases in that they dont serve in the Israeli army many of them, and do get major government subsidies, as for Israel's security, what about instead of UN blue helmets, actually putting NATO troops with orders to shoot to kill anyone entering without permission on either side, now that would be effective.

 

[blofeld]

Re: Re: Israel

If the Jewish settlers could live in Palestine, why could the Palestinians not live in Isreal?

Now try and get everyone to go along with your plan.

And Isreal should build a wall on the Green Line established after the 1948-49 war. Then there is no need for UN forces.

Because they don't want to get blown up at a shopping mall, cafe or on the bus??

 

[*d*]

Well, I'll be... OTB, can you believe, I pretty much agree with you. And I think maybe, both sides might even go for it. Maybe. There is that problem with the Palestinian refugees. Those people have been dependent on UNRWA to keep them alive for a long time. So I don't think the remnant of what's left of their business skills is going to turn their compensation payments into a viable economy too quickly. IMO the refugees will have to be integrated slowly back into the new state of Palestine somehow, and that's going to take alot of planning and money. Plus to make it work, Israel and Palestine will have to agree to trade amongst themselves fairly without any interference of embargos and such.
But your solution is a good start. If only the two sides could put their prejudices aside and consider it.

PS. Here's an interesting proposal Ahmed Yassin(of all people) gave back in May '99. --"We have to be realistic... Let's solve this problem now, on the basis of the '67 borders. Let's end this conflict by declaring a temporary ceasefire. Let's leave the bigger issue for future generations to decide."

 

[Don]

· Use of 1967 boarders
· Palestinians would be provided a State that includes the West Bank, Gaza Strip and pre-1967 portion of Jerusalem.
· Arab nations would sign a treaty with Israel stating it’s right to exist.
· Palestinians would forgo any right of return
· The E.U., Israel and US would split equally a payment to Arab families that were displaced in 1946 to compensate them for forgoing their right of return
· All Jewish settlers would have the right to move to Israel or become citizens of Palestine (or whatever the new State was called)
· The UN would police the boarders between the states with Blue-Helmets for a period of 10 years.

OTB

I also agree with OTB fo the most part. Actually #1, 2, 4 are the key ones IMHO. However I think this will never happen because I can't see the Palestinians giving up the Right to Return and Israel will never let this happen. This was the sticking point at the talks in Camp David w/Clinton and it will always be the deal breaker.

 

[Cinema Face]

This is a nice fantasy world.

It would be wonderful if only it were that simple. The harsh reality is there is a very deep seated hatred for each other. There are many people with a vested interested in fanning the flames of that hatred and maintaining the war.

There will never be peace until there is a decisive victory. In this case, it means one side completely annihilating the other side.

 

[onthebottom]

Re: This is a nice fantasy world.

It would be wonderful if only it were that simple. The harsh reality is there is a very deep seated hatred for each other. There are many people with a vested interested in fanning the flames of that hatred and maintaining the war.

There will never be peace until there is a decisive victory. In this case, it means one side completely annihilating the other side.

My deepest fear is that both sides feel this way and are doing what they can to make it happen to the other.

I think the EU and US have to go to the parties and impose this solution. Not ask them to negotiate amongst themselves (which would be vastly preferable) because they've effectively proven they can't do it. The US is Israel’s only strong supporter in the world; the EU has been the strongest supporter of PLO. If these two could bring the Arab League in as well we'd have a quorum and be able to force this reconciliation.

As for *d*'s (and others) concern about the viability and cost of the new Palestine I think the developed world would have to suck up those costs. Anything is better (even if it's 50 billion a year for many years) that what is going on now. The world would be a much safer place if the plight of the Palestinians couldn't be used by every madman as a basis for killing innocent people. That's worth spending billions on.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

Re: Re: Re: Israel

OTB the solution you propose is exactly what the majority of Palestinians and Israelis would settle for, the problem becomes the settlers in the West Bank and Gaza, they number about 400 thousand, are a powerful voting block in Israeli politics and really are just welfare cases in that they dont serve in the Israeli army many of them, and do get major government subsidies, as for Israel's security, what about instead of UN blue helmets, actually putting NATO troops with orders to shoot to kill anyone entering without permission on either side, now that would be effective.

Scouser1,

I think there are several political barriers to this plan working. One is the settlers, another is that both fat old men who are to be negotiating this peace have a steak in not finishing the job. There is power in the status quo and in being seen by part of the world as a victim (keeps the funds rolling in and the population focused on something other than their own standard of living). The fact that the US has as many Jewish residents as Israel does have a political impact in how the US behaves (we've all seen how one sided the US is with Israel). There would be strong political pressure in the US not to push Israel at all, and if forced to compromise, to pay it handsomely (in addition to the 3 billion we send them now).

For me it comes down to, the status quo is simply the worst possible situation. Any resolution (anywhere close to what I've proposed) would be vastly superior to what these people are suffering with now.

OTB

 

[tompeepin]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

... There is power in the status quo ... (keeps the funds rolling in and the population focused on something other than their own standard of living). OTB

Sounds familiar! Power and cartels ... the way of the world. Now if we only could create a cartel for water and then air.

 

[onthebottom]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

Sounds familiar! Power and cartels ... the way of the world. Now if we only could create a cartel for water and then air.

What percentage of the worlds Hockey sticks are made in Canada? Just asking.....

OTB

 

[loaded]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

Sounds familiar! Power and cartels ... the way of the world. Now if we only could create a cartel for water and then air.

A cartel for water allready exists.....

 

[tompeepin]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

A cartel for water allready exists.....

I know. I am just trying to provoke thought. Enron did not make out very well with Azurix. And Suez and Vivendi are having their own troubles right now. (Those damn meddling French. They want too much influence and control in world affairs. They aspire to dominate the EU and thus challenge the US. That is the real reason the US hates them so much; they are too much alike. Examples: Haiti and Vietnam for starters.) But one day they will figure out how to cartelize (making up new words is fun ) water efficiently. With a world population explosion, soon Denmark and Canada will be fighting over the icebergs and water might become the next oil; unless of course a good pestilence or nuking comes along and wipes out half of the worlds population. War just isn't very good at attrition anymore these days; witness the American casualties in Iraq. But hey that might be 30 - 50 years away so, what do we care, right?

I believe in "free enterprise" for all!!! Freedom and democracy! The cartels are the new dictators, they are NOT custodians representing the people. But rather custodians for the powerful "special interests".

 

[onthebottom]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

I know. I am just trying to provoke thought. Enron did not make out very well with Azurix. And Suez and Vivendi are having their own troubles right now. (Those damn meddling French. They want too much influence and control in world affairs. They aspire to dominate the EU and thus challenge the US. That is the real reason the US hates them so much; they are too much alike. Examples: Haiti and Vietnam for starters.) But one day they will figure out how to cartelize (making up new words is fun ) water efficiently. With a world population explosion, soon Denmark and Canada will be fighting over the icebergs and water might become the next oil; unless of course a good pestilence or nuking comes along and wipes out half of the worlds population. War just isn't very good at attrition anymore these days; witness the American casualties in Iraq. But hey that might be 30 - 50 years away so, what do we care, right?

I believe in "free enterprise" for all!!! Freedom and democracy! The cartels are the new dictators, they are NOT custodians representing the people. But rather custodians for the powerful "special interests".

The first one to break then is the oil cartel, 35 a barrel and still they cut production. I guess we didn't go to Iraq for the oil after all......

But back to Israel, I haven’t read too many objections, and given my past post history that surprises me. If we can agree why can't the powers that be make it happen.

OTB

 

[papasmerf]

Is it me or was it a resolution by the League of Nations that created Isreal???

As an American I simply do not see why I need to pay a cent.

I also support if ya was born in a country; you are a citizen of it.