Kerry and abortion: Hypocrisy or rationality?

[ocean976124]

Sorry to disagree with you - I think if you will check you will find that a Pope only speaks infallibly in matters of faith alone, with the last time it was done was by Pius IX, the father of the modern church when he brought forward the concept of the imaculate conception. While that concept was around for some time, it was heavily debated. Actually this is the only diffrence in matters of faith along with concept of the Pope"s authority between Catholics and Anglicans. In matters of faith the Anglican Church generally mirrored the Roman Church until Pius IX claim of infallibility.
Moral teachings are a guide to be followed nothing more. What I reject is the notion that to be a good Catholic, I have to be a mindless robot. Sorry faith doesn't work that way.

You can disagree all you want, but both Vatican I & II claimed the Pope speaks infallibly on matters of faith and morality. Do a yahoo search on "Papal Infallibility" and you'll see.
Of course, infallibility is not just limited to explicit statements from the Pope like the Immaculate Conception and Mary's Assumption. Councils enjoy infallibility, and the world body of bishops in union with the Pope enjoy it as well when they agree on an ordinary teaching.
I went to a Catholic college and graduate school and took the mandatory theology classes (and a few more just for fun). There's no way around the abortion issue in the Church. To be a Pro-Choice politician places one on very shaky grounds with the Catholic Church...

 

[ocean976124]

Since ABORTION is in no danger of being repealed, why the protests. UNLESS IT IS FOR MEDIA ATTENTION......Hmmmmmmmmm could they be trying to hide the issues??? Is this anything like the GAY MARRIAGE question?? No real value but occupies the media.

Actually abortion is on shaky legal ground in America. The landmark decision Roe v. Wade was already found wrongly decided but its "substance" was kept by the Supreme Court in order for the sake of consistency. What hurts abortion rulings in a post-9/11 world is that the decision is based on a so-called constitutional right to privacy which is not explicitly found in the US Constitution. Now with law enforcement needing more slack to catch and track terrorists the courts are becoming less enthusiastic about supporting rights that don't explicitly exist.
Basically it comes down to whether one wishes to interpret the Constitution strictly (meaning to accept only that which is explicit in the constitution) or if we wish to "read between the lines" in order to protect some common sense things.
4 more years of Bush would mean more judges who interpret the Constitution strictly would be appointed. 4 years of Kerry would mean appointing more judges who "read between the lines."
As cases wind their way through the court system the more judges on one side or another will determine the future of abortion in America...

 

[The Shake]

Since ABORTION is in no danger of being repealed, why the protests. UNLESS IT IS FOR MEDIA ATTENTION......Hmmmmmmmmm could they be trying to hide the issues??? Is this anything like the GAY MARRIAGE question?? No real value but occupies the media.

A woman's right to the autonomy of her body and the freedom to decide what happens to her as "no real value"?

Right.

 

[Ickabod]

I um don't recall any Zelots in America starting a Cursade...............

George Bush seems to be on one as we speak.

 

[papasmerf]

George Bush seems to be on one as we speak.

Don't quote me out of context

the quote was in refrence to religious crusades.

And mentioned how europe has done it and KERRY is supported by them

 

[strange1]

One thing I discovered years back, the Lutherins use the same readings each week as the Catholics. The seperation Martin Luther made was fron the HIGHARCHEY not the faith.

So in effect those trying to use him as an example of disillusionment and change need to do some research.

despite my poor choice of an example, my point still stands that not all christian sects see the pope as the voice of christianity, and therefore the catholic prohibition on abortion does not neccesarily define "christian values"

 

[papasmerf]

despite my poor choice of an example, my point still stands that not all christian sects see the pope as the voice of christianity, and therefore the catholic prohibition on abortion does not neccesarily define "christian values"

I belive the question was is KERRY a hypocrit for his stance or is he a good Catholic? Fact is he is not in alignment with the CHURCH. No need to to cloud the question with subjective observations.

 

[Ickabod]

Don't quote me out of context

the quote was in refrence to religious crusades.

And so was my response.

 

[Ickabod]

I belive the question was is KERRY a hypocrit for his stance or is he a good Catholic? Fact is he is not in alignment with the CHURCH. No need to to cloud the question with subjective observations.

In regards to the death penalty, is Bush a hypocrite or a good Christian?

 

[ocean976124]

In regards to the death penalty, is Bush a hypocrite or a good Christian?

Depends, the Catholic Church's teaching on the death penalty is carefully worded. It recognizes the right of the state to use the death penalty only if necessary. Only problem is, everyone disagrees on when its necessary...
Either way, however, Bush isn't Catholic...

 

[galt]

So you want a short answer for this. Ok here it is Kerry is NOT a hypocrit and remains a good Catholic.

bbk

At the risk of hijakcking this thread further I think that there is a more interesting question here.. Whether Kerry is a good Catholic or not depending on how various chruch dogma is interpreted. The more interesting dilemma for the church is that they have a diocese in one of the catholic strongholds of the United States that has been ordered by the vatican not to provide sacrements to those in favour of abortion. (I am not sure if Kerry was specifically mentioned or not).

This diocese is acting in direct violation of the vatican. Say what you will but whether you believe in a given interpretation and application of the freedom of Christ or Papal Infalibility, when you are a priest and defy an order from the vatican you are breaking the rules BIG TIME and may actually risk excommunication.

This presents an interesting dilemma for the church in the United States being that Boston has one of the largest most influential and most liberal catholic geographies in the United States

 

[Barry-O]

I'm sorry but thats not how you run a country.

well I give Kerry props for keeping a firm grip on reality.

So the guy is Catholic....Do you really expect him to force his religous beliefs on the rest of the country???

What you practice as a personal religion has NO place in politics and certainly NO place in running a country.

if you are running for office with some religious mandate, you should consider some other line of work.

 

[Pallydin]

A woman's right to the autonomy of her body and the freedom to decide what happens to her as "no real value"?

Right.

Once the fetus gains a foothold of rights, the autonomy of the female body and the freedom to decide *does* become an issue of no real value. The law clearly states that one person cannot be killed for the discomfort of another (which easily would cover the situation in most abortions). Th pro-choice lobby may not like it but that is how it is.

When the one changes, the other must follow.

PAL

 

[papasmerf]

did scott comit 2 murders or none???

 

[ocean976124]

Re: I'm sorry but thats not how you run a country.

well I give Kerry props for keeping a firm grip on reality.

So the guy is Catholic....Do you really expect him to force his religous beliefs on the rest of the country???

What you practice as a personal religion has NO place in politics and certainly NO place in running a country.

if you are running for office with some religious mandate, you should consider some other line of work.

Funny but we don't seem to mind Martin Luther King, Jr. using his religious beliefs to foster the Civil RIghts Movement...

 

[Barry-O]

Re: Re: I'm sorry but thats not how you run a country.

Funny but we don't seem to mind Martin Luther King, Jr. using his religious beliefs to foster the Civil RIghts Movement...

Ummmm..... Theres Kind of a difference between Martin Luther King fighting for civil rights (which is good for all).... and somebody running for presidential office and forcing specifics from his religion on the masses which may not mean jack squat to others.

 

[ocean976124]

Re: Re: Re: I'm sorry but thats not how you run a country.

Ummmm..... Theres Kind of a difference between Martin Luther King fighting for civil rights (which is good for all).... and somebody running for presidential office and forcing specifics from his religion on the masses which may not mean jack squat to others.

Not really. To the anti-abortion crowd it is a civil rights issue. The civil rights of the fetus are being violated by abortion.
Moral and religious beliefs always play a role in how we view politics. Catholic social teaching is why so many Catholics are big social policy liberals, yet liberals don't complain about religious beliefs being brought into that arena.
Religious beliefs can influence someone's view of the world without being the sole reason they view the world in that particular manner. Someone who is religiously pro-life/anti-abortion could make an entirely secular and constitutional argument against legalized abortion.
Look at the infamous Dr. Bernard Nathanson. He was a big part of getting abortion legalized in the USA and now he is anti-abortion and makes all his arguments as a doctor, not a religious person. Other doctors may debate and disagree with him, but is he not allowed to even enter the debate on scientific grounds?

 

[Barry-O]

yeah but when it comes to abortion its very "grey" and open to alot of interpretation; there are strong arguments on both sides.

As a reult, something like that is better left up to choice.

smart of Kerry not to push anti abortion. As a politician you cant lean on religion too much...sometimes you just gotta disconnect yourself......Its a judgement call. You gotta be able to see that sometimes your religious beliefs isn't the right answer. And if you cant do that you are not the man for the job...its just that simple.

some people may think that that makes him look like a hypocrite....IMHO I think that makes him look like a sensible man. Sometimes, in order to do the best at your job you just gotta be able to check your personal shit at the door.

Thats the reality of politics ocean ( and actually many other jobs ).

 

[strange1]

Re: Re: I'm sorry but thats not how you run a country.

Funny but we don't seem to mind Martin Luther King, Jr. using his religious beliefs to foster the Civil RIghts Movement...

King was a private individual promoting his views. As I private individual, King had the right to use any legal means to motivate change.

POTUS is an elected position to lead an exteremly diverse nation. It is not in the mandate to deny citizens the right to follow their own religious and personal legal beliefs.

 

[ocean976124]

some people may think that that makes him look like a hypocrite....IMHO I think that makes him look like a sensible man. Sometimes, in order to do the best at your job you just gotta be able to check your personal shit at the door.

Thats the reality of politics ocean ( and actually many other jobs ).

Of course its a reality in politics. However, he should also realize that the Church he belongs to has a major problem with legalized abortion. Hard to believe someone has any real convictions when they use their religious identity to garner votes even if they don't believe in their religion...