Man with knife on streetcar at Dundas and Grace, shot by police

[blackrock13]

So let me get this right

1. Bad man on streetcar with knife
2. gets shot 3 times and goes down
3. time passes
4. officer shoots man 6 more times while on the ground the only movement he made was when the any of the 6 new bullets shot at him actually hit him.

Does that sum it up?

Again, are you really saying that shooting him 6 more times after he was down is not cause to question his judgement on how and when to use a firearm?

Bad man threatening passengers and drivers, not following instructions, challenging police, and moving towards the front door with a 'dangerous weapon', contrary to what nuttyboi might say. His movement on the ground may or may not be because of rounds hitting him

I've already said that the number of shots after the first volley was a point of concern, but as far as I know he was only hit 3 times. No one has indicated where the other 6 shots went. Even if any of them hit him, he must have been a tough little prick, because he died later, not at the scene of the crime.

 

[blackrock13]

Are you really going there? Seriously?

Then I invite all ex-SPs to come here and tell hobbyist how it is suppose to be. All the jaded, bitter, angry etc. After all, they are experienced and professionals right?

Are you saying all exSP's are jaded, bitter, and angry? Are any of them still working with others in the business? Much of the advice posted on TERB from many of them, past and present, have been very constructive and bang on, no pun intended.

 

[Ms.FemmeFatale]

Bad man threatening passengers and drivers, not following instructions, challenging police, and moving towards the front door with a 'dangerous weapon', contrary to what nuttyboi might say. Ya ya, I am not even getting into all that. For the point of this debate, I am giving you ALL of that.


His movement on the ground may or may not be because of rounds hitting him

So the video of him laying on the ground when he was shot the other 6 times and the bullets hitting him where the only thing that made his body move was not enough evidence for you. What else could have possibly been happening to make his body jerk at the same that time bullets are being fired in his direction?


I've already said that the number of shots after the first volley was a point of concern, But not enough of concern to deem cause for a job termination based on his judgement on the use of firearms?


but as far as I know he was only hit 3 times. No one has indicated where the other 6 shots went. Even if any of them hit him, he must have been a tough little prick, because he died later, not at the scene of the crime.

And you wonder why people think you're fucked? Really?

BTW - which crime would that be, the one where the cop shot a dude already down or the crime of being a little prick?

 

[Ms.FemmeFatale]

Are you saying all exSP's are jaded, bitter, and angry? Are any of them still working with others in the business? Much of advice posted on TERB from many of them have been very constructive and bang on, no pun intended.

I didn't say they all were/are. No. Where did you assume that.

I said to bring all of them back, that would be including ALL the jaded and bitter and angry ones too.

Just pointing out that once a person has left their choice of profession for whatever reason, not all at going to be the upstanding and unbiased citizens that would hope them to be, so taking their "expect" opinion without any knowledge of their past in that profession seems a little .......... I don't know.... too much blind faith maybe????

 

[blackrock13]

I didn't say they all were/are. No. Where did you assume that.

I said to bring all of them back, that would be including ALL the jaded and bitter and angry ones too.




Just pointing out that once a person has left their choice of profession for whatever reason, not all at going to be the upstanding and unbiased citizens that would hope them to be, so taking their "expect" opinion without any knowledge of their past in that profession seems a little .......... I don't know.... too much blind faith maybe????

From here;

Then I invite all ex-SPs to come here and tell hobbyist how it is suppose to be. All the jaded, bitter, angry etc

That may not be what you meant, but it is what you posted.

So, likewise we can then find some experts who were ex cops, or police science specialists or criminologists, who can be objective and give useful analysis to the situation at hand.

Most experts have success because of their knowledge and opinions and their success depends on those aspects. If they go off the track too many times or too far, the phones stop ringing very quickly, except maybe from CNN or SUN. The old adage that people basically get paid for what they know what they do is so true. Sorry if you think the tough prick comment was taken seriously. I guess a smiley is needed some times. Yet he did ide on the way to or at the hospital and not on the streetcar, no matter how many rounds hit him.

 

[Ms.FemmeFatale]

From here;




So, likewise we can then find some experts who were ex cops, or police science specialists or criminologists, who can be objective and give useful analysis to the situation at hand

Do you know what a "period" is? Not as in a woman's menstrual cycle but in the terms of grammar. I said to bring back all ex-SP's. Period. Then next thought, All the jaded, bitter, angry, etc. Do you get it?

Probably not.

However, if there are 100 ex SP's, and half are jaded bitter bitches, How unbiased do you think there "expert" opinions are going to be? Now related that what you have said, and tell me how you know that these ex coppers are professional STILL, unbiased STILL and can offer objective and give useful analysis to the situation at hand? Or do you just assume because of the job titled they once had? Just like all cops must be good right? There are no lying police on the force now or in the past? There are no bad cops?

BTW - you have still yet to address how the mans body would move when the 6 bullets where shot in his direction after he was down on the ground?

 

[great bear]

From here;



That may not be what you meant, but it is what you posted.

So, likewise we can then find some experts who were ex cops, or police science specialists or criminologists, who can be objective and give useful analysis to the situation at hand.

The Bear is a police science specialist. After perusing your many posts it has been decided you are an idiot and doomed to suffer this way for the rest of your life.

 

[Ms.FemmeFatale]

From here;



That may not be what you meant, but it is what you posted.

So, likewise we can then find some experts who were ex cops, or police science specialists or criminologists, who can be objective and give useful analysis to the situation at hand. Most experts have success because of their knowledge and opinions and their success depends on those aspects. If they go off the track too many times or too far, the phones stop ringing very quickly.

Let me know when you are done editing the shit out of your posts so I can reply properly. Thanks

 

[fuji]

He however has a right to due process, which in this case may very well include the court system.

If he is charged, certainly.

No doubt the union has a collective agreement in place that prevents firing officers for gross incompetence. Likely that is a part of the problem.

In private industry he would already be gone.

 

[fuji]

In what world do police instructions equal dare?

Listen to the audio. There is a female officer giving him instructions too. She is doing what police are supposed to do, in the way that are supposed to do it. Her line of conversation is designed to defuse the situation. She seems like a good cop.

Then Mr. Testosterone begins screaming and shouting ultimatums, which serve to increase tensions, and since Yatim was clearly in some rage too, essentially challenged him to one up the cop by taking another step.

Does that make the shooter criminal? Nope. But it makes him a horrible cop displaying bad judgement and mishandling a situation with fatal consequences.

Bluntly, we pay our cops well enough that we should expect better. We pay for better. Police do receive training on how to handle disturbed individuals and he clearly failed to apply it. The female cop was textbook until Mr. T forced a confrontation.

He should be fired, or if the ludicrous collective agreement won't allow that, transferred to parking enforcement.

 

[blackrock13]

The Bear is a police science specialist. After perusing your many posts it has been decided you are an idiot and doomed to suffer this way for the rest of your life.

Did you snout grow when you posted this. as for the next point, try not drooling in your porridge on your picnic.

 

[Mervyn]

If he is charged, certainly.

No doubt the union has a collective agreement in place that prevents firing officers for gross incompetence. Likely that is a part of the problem.

In private industry he would already be gone.

In a non unionized one, perhaps. Even then their are laws which an employer must follow when firing someone.

 

[GPIDEAL]

DUH! So what? Some of these professional actually train officers. What other professionals would you hear or have we heard from. I'd expect military professionals to critic military operations, lawyers to critic lawyers, and doctors to critic doctors.

Did the situation go flawlessly, not at all. Yet is it a criminal offence as over 50 members agree with, also no.

Well, I hope a legal professional cross-examines Morcillo because I've lost faith in the LE officers.

 

[blackrock13]

Do you know what a "period" is? Not as in a woman's menstrual cycle but in the terms of grammar. I said to bring back all ex-SP's. Period. Then next thought, All the jaded, bitter, angry, etc. Do you get it?

Probably not.

However, if there are 100 ex SP's, and half are jaded bitter bitches, How unbiased do you think there "expert" opinions are going to be? Now related that what you have said, and tell me how you know that these ex coppers are professional STILL, unbiased STILL and can offer objective and give useful analysis to the situation at hand? Or do you just assume because of the job titled they once had? Just like all cops must be good right? There are no lying police on the force now or in the past? There are no bad cops?

BTW - you have still yet to address how the mans body would move when the 6 bullets where shot in his direction after he was down on the ground?

I'll let your expertise and exposure to the SP industry carry that point of half are jaded, but it still carries that an expert's opinions are what makes him money and to give screwy opinions too many times doesn't make for good business. Even Rush Limbaugh's and Glenn Beck's advertisers have learned that lesson.

As for the experts opinions, it's more based on what they are doing now more than what they did on the job, but not exclusively. I've known layers, judges, even mechanics and plumbers who were cops. I'm more interested in their expertise now than before. I've never claimed that all cops are right. I thought you said you'd read my posts? you must have missed the ones on the RCMP in BC and Alberta.

 

[GPIDEAL]

Bad man threatening passengers and drivers, not following instructions, challenging police, and moving towards the front door with a 'dangerous weapon', contrary to what nuttyboi might say. His movement on the ground may or may not be because of rounds hitting him

I've already said that the number of shots after the first volley was a point of concern, but as far as I know he was only hit 3 times. No one has indicated where the other 6 shots went. Even if any of them hit him, he must have been a tough little prick, because he died later, not at the scene of the crime.

He may have indeed challenged the cop initially but he was drunk or high, because nobody in their right mind would challenge a cop pointing a gun at them. But the cop escalated the challenge. That's the issue.

Then after he's shot, the kid who probably couldn't believe he got shot and pissed in his drunken state, may have waved his knife desperately on the floor of the streetcar as he lays their dying, and Morcillo acts like "Oh yeah, you still holding that fucking knife, I told you to drop it punk", and wastes him right then and there.

(I've watched this video, and Morcillo is yelling or in a state of distress AFTER the 9th shot. He's clearly agitated. SY pushed the right buttons in this young cop who appears to have lost his cool. THIS IS MY BEEF WITH WHAT HAPPENED.)

 

[fuji]

In a non unionized one, perhaps. Even then their are laws which an employer must follow when firing someone.

I have fired people for incompetence before. Worst case you get sued and wind up paying severance. If you have well documented evidence proving the incompetence then you would fare well in court though these cases still almost always just settle since nobody wants to pay the legal costs.

Really the only legal question is whether you pay severance and how much.

 

[GPIDEAL]

If he is charged, certainly.

No doubt the union has a collective agreement in place that prevents firing officers for gross incompetence. Likely that is a part of the problem.

In private industry he would already be gone.

I don't know about the police force, but in our unionized construction industry, we can fire for royal fuck ups as management reserves certain rights.

However, one doesn't normally fire a police officer on the spot. Hard to immediately replace an officer who's gone though schooling and/or training, and in this case, there's an investigative process.

 

[blackrock13]

Well, I hope a legal professional cross-examines Morcillo because I've lost faith in the LE officers.

I'm no big fan of only cops investigating cops as well.

 

[fuji]

I don't know about the police force, but in our unionized construction industry, we can fire for royal fuck ups as management reserves certain rights.

However, one doesn't normally fire a police officer on the spot. Hard to immediately replace an officer who's gone though schooling and/or training, and in this case, there's an investigative process.

Sure, but we need to resist this ludicrous idea that he keeps his job unless convicted of a crime. We want quality employees, the standard to keep your job should be significantly higher than merely not being a criminal!

 

[GPIDEAL]

Listen to the audio. There is a female officer giving him instructions too. She is doing what police are supposed to do, in the way that are supposed to do it. Her line of conversation is designed to defuse the situation. She seems like a good cop.

Then Mr. Testosterone begins screaming and shouting ultimatums, which serve to increase tensions, and since Yatim was clearly in some rage too, essentially challenged him to one up the cop by taking another step.

Does that make the shooter criminal? Nope. But it makes him a horrible cop displaying bad judgement and mishandling a situation with fatal consequences.

Bluntly, we pay our cops well enough that we should expect better. We pay for better. Police do receive training on how to handle disturbed individuals and he clearly failed to apply it. The female cop was textbook until Mr. T forced a confrontation.

He should be fired, or if the ludicrous collective agreement won't allow that, transferred to parking enforcement.

:thumb:

Here, here. Absolutely. Ditto.

Basically, Morcillo lost control. He lost his cool, and initially DID NOT TRY to defuse the situation.