Discreet Dolls

Most recent articles on prostitution related laws, opinions, comments

shakenbake

Senior Turgid Member
Nov 13, 2003
8,223
2,703
113
Durham Region, Den of Iniquity
www.vafanculo.it
Watching a nude dancer or even jerking off to her is not a sexual service (it's not masturbation at a MP). Neither is making a porno, presumably between consenting adults (that's "art").
However, the Justice Department, in their technical paper on Bill C-36, considers it a sexual service. http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/other-autre/protect/p1.html

The following activities have been found to constitute a sexual service or an act of prostitution, if provided in return for some form of consideration: lap-dancing, which involves sitting in the client’s lap and simulating sexual intercourse;[SUP][31][/SUP] masturbation of a client in the context of a massage parlour, whether or not the client climaxes;[SUP][32][/SUP] and, sado-masochistic activities, provided that the acts can be considered to be sexually stimulating/gratifying.[SUP][33][/SUP] However, jurisprudence is clear that neither acts related to the production of pornography,[SUP][34][/SUP] nor stripping[SUP][35][/SUP] meet the test. In most cases, physical contact, or sexual interaction, between the person providing the service and the person receiving it is required; however, acts for which consideration is provided that take place in a private room in a club and that are sexual in nature, but do not involve physical contact between the “client” and “performer”, such as self-masturbation, have been found to constitute prostitution.[SUP][36][/SUP]
 

DigitallyYours

Off TERB indefinitely
Oct 31, 2010
1,540
0
0
Maggie de Vries, whose sister, Sarah de Vries, was one of serial killer Robert Pickton’s victims, said she opposed the bill, asked to appear but was not invited.
This person should have spoken, while the Adult Entertainment Association of Canada should have stayed at home.

Wasn't there another witness who had some relation to a Pickton murder victim?

If parents of sex workers who support the bill can speak, I think other family members of sex workers who oppose can speak too.

Liberal justice critic Sean Casey said he called witnesses who he believed “had something to contribute”, including the Native Women’s Association of Canada and the Vancouver Rape Relief and Women’s Shelter, even if he didn’t agree with them.
Sounds like the Liberals wasted their witnesses. He should have put more priority on constitutional lawyers. Not that it would have really changed anything in the end because of the Conservative majority, but Casey's witnesses added nothing different that weren't covered by the Conservatives. The AEAC was one of his witnesses as well, but contributed nothing useful.
 

drlove

Ph.D. in Pussyology
Oct 14, 2001
4,775
127
63
The doctor is in
Hopefully!

Let him/her without sin zing the first rock!

But, would it have more impact if they waited until the new law is enacted?
No. They should do it now. More pressure on the Cons to change the bill once everyone finds out what hypocrites they are!
 

DigitallyYours

Off TERB indefinitely
Oct 31, 2010
1,540
0
0
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pro...d-as-hostile-witnesses-at-committee-1.2704434

Prostitution bill critics treated as hostile witnesses at committee

After sitting through more than 16 hours of often heart-wrenching witness testimony, Conservative MPs voted to make just one substantive change Tuesday to Justice Minister Peter MacKay's bid to rewrite Canada's prostitution laws, by narrowing the proposed blanket ban on "public communications" related to sex work to apply only to areas near playgrounds, schoolyards and daycare centres.

The change addresses some of the loudest criticism of the bill, but it is an outcome that will almost certainly disappoint the many witnesses who had pleaded with the committee to remove any threat of criminal charges against sex workers.

And it likely won't come as a surprise to those who found themselves facing a distinctly chilly reception from the Conservative contingent on committee.

Just moments after the final round of hearings had wrapped up Thursday, Conservative MP Stella Ambler — who is not a permanent committee member but sat in on the hearings for caucus colleague Kyle Seeback — issued a statement attacking "Trudeau Liberal" and NDP members for attempting to "undermine" the government's bill, and "make it easier for johns and pimps to operate openly in communities across Canada."

How so?

Ambler was particularly perturbed by the Liberals and NDP submitting the names of two witnesses that, she argued, had no business sharing their views on the proposed legislation: University of Victoria researcher Chris Atchison and the Adult Entertainment Association of Canada.

"This is the same Adult Entertainment Association of Canada that, when our government shut down their access to vulnerable overseas women, launched a campaign to recruit 18-year-old high school girls to work in their clubs," Ambler said in her statement.

As for Atchison, described in Ambler's release as a "sociologist": "[He] believes that 'victimization is a two-way street,' and that men who exploit vulnerable prostitutes (who he calls members of the 'sex-buying community') need to be 'understood' and treated in a 'non-judgmental' way," Ambler wrote.

At no point during the appearances of either Atchison or Adult Entertainment Industry Association president Tim Lambrinos did Ambler — or any other Conservative MP — challenge their participation in the process, or confront either witness directly about the claims made in her release.

Sex workers' personal experience questioned


At times, the proceedings took on the tone of the questioning of a hostile witness.

Natasha Potvin, a former sex worker who now volunteers with the Victoria-based sex worker support group PEERS, testified on Thursday. In her opening statement, she stressed that the 15 years she spent in the sex trade — from age 21 to 37 — were entirely voluntary.

Sex worker advocates Valerie Scott and Amy Lebovitch embrace after learning Canada's highest court struck down the country's prostitution laws last December, giving Ottawa one year to rewrite the law. A Commons committee has been reviewing the new legislation. (Adrian Wyld/Canadian Press)

"It was my choice — a choice I made on behalf of my daughter, and I was proud of it," she said, adding that it was also her choice to share her story with the committee.

Calling her a victim, she said, "is to ignore and denigrate my reality, and does not take my choice into account."

Potvin insisted she has been a victim of discrimination based on that choice. She was visited by child protective services officials, who threatened to take her son away because she was a sex worker. She said that experience left her "very reluctant" to disclose her profession.

"I felt very alone, and without any defences. If anything had happened to me, I wouldn't have reported it."

Potvin's testimony provided first-hand insight from someone with direct knowledge of how the proposed legislative changes could affect sex workers with no desire to exit the industry. She also addressed the safety issues that led the Supreme Court to declare the existing laws inadequate in the Bedford case.

Ambler, however, seemed more interested in discrediting Potvin than asking her to expand on her concerns.

"[You] mentioned that you liked some of your clients, and liked some of them less, but that, overall you're proud of your choice, and that it's worked for you in your life," she noted.

"The way you tell it, frankly, it sounds like, you know, a TV sitcom about happy hookers, and I just can't reconcile this with the other things I've heard."

'We don't have time for that'


If this bill was enacted, she wondered,"would it put you out of business?"

It would prevent her from being safe while she worked, Potvin replied, by making it impossible for her to screen potential clients, as well as potentially discouraging "good clients" from availing themselves of her services.

"It's the bad clients," she reminded the committee "who are the ones who aren't afraid of the police or the law."

Other former sex workers on the witness list were pointedly ignored.

In a blog post, Kerry Porth, a former sex worker who testified alongside PIVOT lawyer Elin Sigurdson, noted that, despite her "direct experience and expertise," she wasn't asked a single question.

"When my colleague Elin tried to defer a question that was more appropriate for someone with experience in sex work to answer, Conservative MP Stella Ambler looked me in the eyes and said, 'We don’t have time for that,'" she recalled.
 

drlove

Ph.D. in Pussyology
Oct 14, 2001
4,775
127
63
The doctor is in
The real damage is just the "fear factor" for many people that can't afford to even risk a criminal record, even if the change of it happening is 0.00001%.
Yup. You got it..... That's why I'll be out.
 

DigitallyYours

Off TERB indefinitely
Oct 31, 2010
1,540
0
0
Prostitution Should Be Legal; Supreme Court Decision Correct; Bill C-36 Wrong - Majority

http://poll.forumresearch.com/post/71/prostitution-should-be-legal-bill-c36-wrong/
http://poll.forumresearch.com/data/Fed Prostitution News Release (2014.06.15) Forum Research.pdf

One twentieth claim to have engaged prostitute

TORONTO JUNE 15th, 2014 – In a random sampling of public opinion taken by the Forum Poll™ among 1433 Canadians 18 years of age and older, more than half said prostitution should be legal (54%), compared to just one third who say it should not be (34%). One tenth have no opinion (12%). Approval of legalized prostitution is common to Gen Y (35 to 44 - 60%), Boomers (55 to 64 - 58%), males (66%), the wealthiest (68%), in Alberta (64%) and BC (62%), among Liberals (63%) and New Democrats (60%), the best educated (post grad - 59%), among non-Christians (60%) and the non-religious (59%), among those with children (59%) but not among mothers (44%).

Two thirds agree living off the avails should be illegal

Living off the earnings of another who is engaged in prostitution is not seen to be acceptable, and two thirds think it should be illegal (67%). One fifth think it should be allowed (21%) and one tenth haven't formed an opinion (12%).

One half approve Supreme Court striking down prostitution laws

One half of Canadian voters approve of the Supreme Court's action in striking down all of Canada's prostitution laws (51%), while just more than a quarter disapprove (28%). As many as one fifth can't make up their minds (21%). Approval is highest among the youngest (60%), males (62%), mid income groups ($60K to $80K - 58%) and the wealthiest (58%) in Atlantic Canada (55%) but not in Alberta (45%), among Liberals (59%) and New Democrats (57%), but not Conservatives (38%), among the best educated (post grad - 59%) and the non-religious (59%).

One half disapprove of Bill C-36

When the key provisions of Bill C-36 are explained to them (paying and advertising for prostitution become illegal), one half disapprove (51%), while just one third approve (34%). One seventh don't have an opinion (15%). Disapproval for Bill C-36 mirrors approval of the Supreme Court's action in striking the previous law down.

Most say prostitution shouldn't be in Criminal Code

Close to one half say the Criminal Code should not deal with prostitution (46%), while 3-in-10 think the code should apply (30%). As many as one quarter have no opinion on this measure (24%).

1-in-20 admit to engaging prostitute

One twentieth of Canadian adults claim to have engaged the services of a prostitute (5%) and these are all males (10%) and primarily in the lower income group ($20K to $40K - 10%) and in BC (9%). Incidence also appears to be higher among past Green Party voters (13%) and non-Christians (9%). In fact, in addition to the 1-in-20 who claim to have used a prostitute, a further one tenth prefer not to answer (10%), and a portion of these must be assumed to have engaged in this behaviour. Therefore, based on a Canadian adult population of about 25 million, as many as 1.5 million or more (primarily males) may have paid for sex. “It is, as we all know, the oldest profession, so it should be no surprise that it's thriving in Canada. What is perhaps more surprising is that those who have engaged in behaviour which, until now, has been illegal, are willing to admit it," said Forum Research President, Dr. Lorne Bozinoff.

Lorne Bozinoff, Ph.D. is the president and founder of Forum Research.
 

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
23,333
13
38
However, the Justice Department, in their technical paper on Bill C-36, considers it a sexual service. http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/other-autre/protect/p1.html

The following activities have been found to constitute a sexual service or an act of prostitution, if provided in return for some form of consideration: lap-dancing, which involves sitting in the client’s lap and simulating sexual intercourse;[SUP][31][/SUP] masturbation of a client in the context of a massage parlour, whether or not the client climaxes;[SUP][32][/SUP] and, sado-masochistic activities, provided that the acts can be considered to be sexually stimulating/gratifying.[SUP][33][/SUP] However, jurisprudence is clear that neither acts related to the production of pornography,[SUP][34][/SUP] nor stripping[SUP][35][/SUP] meet the test. In most cases, physical contact, or sexual interaction, between the person providing the service and the person receiving it is required; however, acts for which consideration is provided that take place in a private room in a club and that are sexual in nature, but do not involve physical contact between the “client” and “performer”, such as self-masturbation, have been found to constitute prostitution.[SUP][36][/SUP]

I stand corrected. Thank you. How the fuck is self-masturbation for consideration, exploitation or making someone a 'victim'?

What if you are watching a paid webcam gal from home and jerking off? You are NOT in a club, so is that not prostitution? (Not as difficult to enforce if the webcam gal is part of a sting operation).
 

DigitallyYours

Off TERB indefinitely
Oct 31, 2010
1,540
0
0
I stand corrected. Thank you. How the fuck is self-masturbation for consideration, exploitation or making someone a ''victim'?
I think masturbation here refers to a handjob. Although you're right. The definition of masturbation is that it is self-performed.
 

MPAsquared

www.musemassagespa.com

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
23,333
13
38
I usually have contact dancing and kissing too but officially they haven't said that would be sexual services. Have they? (other than the release of a technical paper?). So the only chance for a potential problem may be when I invite dancers is if a neighbor or something calls the police (my neighbors have seen me with so many visiting guests over years so they could suspect something) and in that case even if the cops bother to show up how can they prove that I had contact dances (assuming it would be illegal) and not just nude dances? This law is both stupid and flawed.
According to the technical paper (per Shakenbake's post), if there's no masturbation (including self-masturbation) or lap-dancing to simulate intercourse, or regular sex, dancing and kissing should be okay.

They won't know what you do at your home period unless the sex worker tells them, or if your guest is an undercover cop and has entrapped you into having sex.
 

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
23,333
13
38
I think masturbation here refers to a handjob. Although you're right. The definition of masturbation is that it is self-performed.

The technical paper treats masturbation of a CLIENT in a MP context as a 'sexual service' AS WELL as self-masturbation (pleasuring yourself) in a private room of a club where there is NO physical contact between customer and client, but still for paid sexual interaction (say talking dirty to each other - he plays with himself while she's using a toy or rubbing her crotch, etc. etc.).
 

escapefromstress

New member
Mar 15, 2012
943
0
0
The technical paper treats masturbation of a CLIENT in a MP context as a 'sexual service' AS WELL as self-masturbation (pleasuring yourself) in a private room of a club where there is NO physical contact between customer and client, but still for paid sexual interaction (say talking dirty to each other - he plays with himself while she's using a toy or rubbing her crotch, etc. etc.).
That's my understanding as well.
 

DigitallyYours

Off TERB indefinitely
Oct 31, 2010
1,540
0
0
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/..._deeply_divided_on_prostitution_approach.html

Secret poll shows Canadians deeply divided on prostitution approach


OTTAWA—A nationwide poll kept under wraps by the Conservative government shows Canadians are deeply divided over how Ottawa should deal with prostitution and contradicts Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s claim the proposed new bill has the backing of most Canadians.

The poll was obtained by the Toronto Star hours after the Department of Justice refused to release it Tuesday as hearings into the controversial anti-prostitution Bill C-36 ended.

The Star also obtained the results of in-depth focus-group research carried out in conjunction with the survey that shows Canadians are worried about driving prostitution further underground — risking sex workers’ safety — should the Conservatives move forward with criminalizing the purchasing of sex.

The Ipsos-Reid poll of 3,000 Canadians, commissioned by the Department of Justice, shows Canadians are almost evenly split on how the government should approach the complex issue of adult prostitution. Among the findings:

A slim majority, 51.2 per cent, thought buying sexual services should be illegal, while 44.1 per cent were opposed.

Nearly half of Canadians, or 49.8 per cent, believed selling sex should also be illegal, with 45.4 per cent opposed.


On June 9, when asked why his government has clung to the so-called Nordic model — criminalizing pimps and johns — and not entertained the idea of decriminalizing or going further and legalizing prostitution, Harper said, “We have consulted very widely on the legislation that is before Parliament.”

“The evidence is it’s very widely supported by Canadians,” he said. In French, Harper went further, saying, “I think that our consultations certainly indicate majority support for the actions we are taking.”

Most Canadians — 75.6 per cent — agreed somewhat or strongly with the statement “prostitution is harmful for women” whether it is legal or not, while 20.3 per cent somewhat or strongly disagreed. Another 4.1 per cent didn’t know.

However, the country is clearly split on how to tackle the buying and selling of sexual services, with a strong divide between men and women on how to approach the issue.

Asked which prostitution-related activities should be legal or illegal, 57.2 per cent of women said buying sexual services should be illegal, while only 44.9 per cent of men said buying sex should be illegal.

More men (50.4 per cent) than women (38.1 per cent) believed buying sexual services should be legal.

More women (55.1 per cent) than men (44.2 per cent) supported making the selling of sexual services illegal.

The gender gap finding is consistent with at least two other public opinion polls published recently by the Angus Reid group and, separately, by Forum Research.

The telephone poll, between Jan. 30 and Feb. 7, tried to gauge Canadians’ overall attitude to prostitution. The poll had a margin of error of 1.8 percentage points.

However, a more revealing picture emerged in a series of 14 in-depth focus groups in seven locations across the country that the research firm also did for the federal justice department.

It shows Canadians were concerned that laws governing the sex trade should not further endanger women who practice prostitution.

Most were unaware of current laws or the gap left by December’s Supreme Court of Canada ruling that struck down three specific provisions against prostitution-related activities.

(The high court said in a context where prostitution was legal, laws that prohibited communications, “living on the avails” of prostitutes, and brothels are an unconstitutional violation of prostitutes’ rights to liberty and security of the person. The Supreme Court ruled the Criminal Code offences barred women from hiring bodyguards or drivers, working in safer indoor locations, and forced rushed and furtive negotiations between clients and street-based sex workers who were less able to screen for drunk or violent “johns.” It gave Ottawa 12 months to either rewrite or drop the offences.)

When provided with that background, participants had trouble choosing what approach the government should adopt, though most expected the Nordic model — criminalizing the clients and pimps — would be the route Ottawa would take.

According to Ipsos-Reid, those who supported the Nordic model “liked that prostitutes would be viewed as exploited parties rather than criminals. They also liked the idea of directing prostitutes toward social services, instead of to criminal courts. This type of approach was seen as allowing government to focus on . . . addressing the exploitation of children and women (some with addiction problems) who may not be consenting participants in the sex trade.”

“However, many (especially men) did not understand why the Nordic model would make it a crime for one party to the transaction and not the other. Furthermore, some feared that criminalizing the clients/pimps would simply push prostitution activities further underground, making it even more unsafe for prostitutes,” the firm’s analysis stated.

In focus groups, there was “limited support” for criminalizing everyone including the prostitutes, Ipsos-Reid said.

“While some said this approach would be more fair or consistent than the Nordic model, there was still a concern that this approach would push prostitution further underground and do little to improve safety for prostitutes.”

In the end, the Conservative government adopted an approach inspired by the Nordic model, but also one that continues to criminalize prostitutes found selling sex in a place that is or is next to a school ground, playground or daycare centre, subject to a $2,000 fine or six months in jail.

The Conservatives call it a “made-in-Canada” model that balances the need to protect children and communities and the need to protect “exploited persons” or prostitutes who the government says are victims, but practicing an “inherently dangerous” activity.

Critics of the approach say it is even worse than the laws that were struck down.

Lawyer Kyle Kirkup, a Trudeau scholar at the University of Toronto law faculty, called the Conservatives’ approach the “Nordic model’s bigger, deadlier cousin.”

Last week, Justice Minister Peter MacKay, and his officials denied opposition requests for the polling research as the Commons standing justice committee studied Bill C-36, pushing its release to the end of July, the latest date possible under a policy that requires polls to be made public within six months.

Senior assistant deputy minister Donald Piragoff downplayed the survey saying “there were only a couple of questions on prostitution” and that it was merely “useful information” in formulating the bill.
 

shakenbake

Senior Turgid Member
Nov 13, 2003
8,223
2,703
113
Durham Region, Den of Iniquity
www.vafanculo.it
The technical paper treats masturbation of a CLIENT in a MP context as a 'sexual service' AS WELL as self-masturbation (pleasuring yourself) in a private room of a club where there is NO physical contact between customer and client, but still for paid sexual interaction (say talking dirty to each other - he plays with himself while she's using a toy or rubbing her crotch, etc. etc.).
What the hell fun is self-masturbation? :frown:
 

triton

New member
May 16, 2005
12
0
0
Referring to the twitter post about Ottawa Escorts compiling and publishing a list of MPs who use their services. Wish they would put this list out BEFORE the vote. That would certainly diminish their numbers as they run for the hills
 

DigitallyYours

Off TERB indefinitely
Oct 31, 2010
1,540
0
0
I stand corrected. Thank you. How the fuck is self-masturbation for consideration, exploitation or making someone a 'victim'?
I didn't see that second reference to self-masturbation. I tried to find the cases referred to in footnote 36. There are two cases cited, both from the Quebec Court of Appeal. It's possible the QCA found self-masturbation to be "prostitution" in both cases (couldn't find the cases in English), but the Tremblay case was appealed to the SCC who found that the acts were not actually "indecent" which is what that case was actually about. It's possible that this case is no longer good law, but what the Court says regarding indecency (not prostitution, but indecency) is interesting.

http://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1034/index.do
The "community standard of tolerance" test for indecency, like the one used in obscenity cases, involves an analysis of the impugned acts involving several considerations. These accepted standards of tolerance, which are contemporary and change with the times, and which reflect the standards of society as a whole, exist and should not be exceeded. The decision as to whether the acts fall below the community standard of tolerance rests with the court. The determination must be made objectively in accordance with the contemporary standards of the Canadian community, and not merely project a judge's own personal ideas of what is tolerable.

The degree of harm ‑‑ in the sense of predisposing persons to act in an anti‑social manner ‑‑ is a factor that the courts can consider in determining the community standard of tolerance. The public harm that might result from the public exposure to the impugned acts is relevant to the determination of whether or not they are indecent.

The circumstances surrounding the act must be taken into account for the community standard of tolerance will vary from place to place and with the composition of the audience. The purpose of the performance and the nature of the warning or notice that is given of the performance may be considered.

The use of expert evidence to assess the community standard of tolerance is advisable. Here, the trial judge, in determining this standard, properly considered the expert opinion of a psychologist and sexologist, a government report studying the problems associated with pornography and prostitution and a police officer who attended at the premises.

No complaints were made about the club's activities, either from neighbours or clients, and this fact too can be considered in deciding whether there was community tolerance for the acts. The community tolerated sexually suggestive acts performed by naked dancers and the acts of both the clients and the dancers came within the range of this tolerance. Both clients and dancers knew exactly what to expect, consented to the activities and could leave at will. Whether the acts of simulated masturbation or masturbation itself are indecent depends on the circumstances. The lack of physical contact, although not determinative, was significant since there was little likelihood of physical harm being caused to either individual. Equally important, the "no contact" rule ensured that the transmission of infectious sexual diseases was prevented and so increased the level of the community tolerance for the acts at issue.

Although the premises here fell within the Criminal Code 's definition of a public place, common sense indicates that there are great differences between locations which can come within the definition of public places. The performance of an activity in a closed room in a house, where only two consenting adults are present, is far different from carrying out the same activity in a school yard or a public park. The existence of the monitoring peep hole, even if it were to be used for consensual voyeurism, was hardly enough to render the act any more public, in any significant sense, than it was when performed between the two persons apparently alone in the room. The presence of the peep holes would, if anything, indicate that the acts were not viewed as indecent by any of the persons in the room or by the management enforcing their rule against physical contact.
 

DigitallyYours

Off TERB indefinitely
Oct 31, 2010
1,540
0
0
So if in Saudi Arabia a majority think that gay sex should be illegal and punishable by jail, do you think this a right thing to do as they majority decide ?
I agree that popular opinion is not how to make law. What's shameful here though is that the Conservatives claimed there was an overwhelming majority supporting this, and there clearly is not an overwhelming majority.
 
Toronto Escorts