My Secular Christmas Rant (well, sort of...)

[Bud Plug]

I am agnostic and am an employer. I absolutely do not oppose my employees who want to worship their god, whichever one it may be. This country supports freedom of expression, speech and religion. This freedom should be allowed in ANY circumstance. Just because a person is at work doesn't mean that their religious ideologies should stay home. NEVER has it caused any problems in my work place because for the most part, decent people understand an individuals want or need to worship their god.

Here I thought we lived in a free country, but what I'm hearing is such closeted communistic views.

Basically, you don't care if they practice religion, just not in public.

Interesting post. Lots of agnostics and atheists believe in freedom of religion, whether for the purpose of keeping the peace among fueding religious groups, or in order to be protected from persecution by these groups for not being religious. It's not often that an agnostic supports freedom of religion because he actively supports the religious observances. Why would anyone positively support religious observances that they don't subscribe to or believe in? It doesn't make any sense to me.

I'm glad you haven't had any conflict at your workplace. I take it you don't have Hindus and Sikhs working together, or Catholic Irish and Protestant Irish, or Sunni and other Muslims, etc, etc. If you really deny knowledge of how religious differences manifest themselves into personal confrontations, you must work in a very secluded environment.

As to your last comment, I also don't care whether people want to pick their nose, sing along to Celine Dion records, fellate themselves, chew with their mouths open, scratch their balls, or kiss a picture of their mother before they fall asleep everynight - just not in public, thanks! I thought the very point of religious freedom is that religious belief is a very personal matter. If so, why not keep it that way. No one likes to listen to someone blather on about some matter that's only of personal interest to them. Even less so when the tenor of the blathering is about how they are a morally superior person to you (especially when you're sure that they're just a blathering idiot).

In many ways, it's just like the argument people made about rules preventing earrings and piercings for retail employees. It was argued that such accessories were a matter of personal expression that were somehow fundamental to who these people were as persons. Please! If what you wear or what piercings you have define you as a person, perhaps its time to examine why you have no substance to your identity.

Similarly, surely people can function between 9 and 6 without "expressing" their religious beliefs. Think about Christ all you want. Make every decision based on "what would Christ do". Plan your next church picnic in your mind. Just enjoy it all privately in your mind, the same way I'm thinking about the lovely girls at the Cannonball I'm going to visit at the end of the day!

 

[Keebler Elf]

wow, you're more ignorant than I thought.
I'm no christian by any means but the whole NAME of the holiday which is to come is called CHRISTMAS. Christ's birthday.
You can't argue that and if you do, well then you're an idiot.

And you might want to re-read my original post again too. Cuz it's clear that it just ain't getting through to you.

I don't care what the source of the holiday is. Sheesh, that's so NOT THE POINT. The point, which I can't believe I have to spell out to you like you're some 5-year old, is that Christmas has evolved beyond its traditional meaning. For many people, it no longer has ANYTHING to do with Christ.

Nowhere did I state you're not entitled to your religious beliefs (selective reading I see; boy, that's something you'd never expect a Bible thumper do ). You can believe whatever the hell you want. Just don't preach it at work or at school (where people can't choose to not attend). And THAT, my friend, was the whole frickken point of my original post.

Jesus Christ, this is why I don't listen to religious wingnuts.

 

[red]

Are you really that unlettered? Why don't you ask a Muslim about the Crusades? Or about GWB's war?

The point, which BTW you seem to have missed completely, is that people defending beliefs of any religion will go to some messy extremes.

Oh - i got your point- I was responding in a sarcastic way. don't roll your eyes- they will get stuck that way.

your point seemed to equate expressions of religious beliefs with extreme muslims. its really a form of extremism to express your beliefs in god or to defend your beliefs from ridicule or what you feel to be disrespect?

 

[red]

I already answered that question. Re-read my post.

(An interesting and enduring phenomenon around TERB, responding to posts without reading them).

i read it. you said people should not be permitted to discuss their religious beliefs at work because its disruptive. you may have seen soccer riots in europe or seen fights in bars over sports rivalaries in North America. Should we ban discussions of sports at work too?

 

[Bud Plug]

BTW,

I also agree with Keebler that Christmas, despite the name, is enjoyed widely as a secular holiday (and holiday season). As a result, when someone says Merry Christmas to me, I don't receive it as a religious salutation. Christmas to me is a sort of winter festival, characterized by some time off, an emphasis on family gatherings, gift giving, feasting, and some pretending (for the benefit of children and adults alike) that there is some "magic" in this world. In my opinion, celebrating Christmas on a purely spiritual level is comfortably consistent with the secular traditions, so there's no need for
conflict.

(I also think that most people celebrating Victoria Day don't give a hoot about Queen Victoria or the Monarchy).

As result:

1. I can't abide the people who complain that singing Christmas songs in school like "Frosty the Snowman" amounts to shoving Christianity down the throats of kids.
2. I can't able the people who want everyone to put the "Christ" back in Christmas and take issue with Christmas being observed in a secular way.

 

[Jack Mioff]

Wondering?

If our calender is based on the life of Christ, how come his birthday is not on January 1st?

When was Santa Claus born?

I'm confused.

Triple Xmas cheers, fellow TERBites,
Jack.

p.s.:
Lots of yelling going on in this thread - 'tis the season to be jolly, 'Ho..... Ho....'

p.p.s.: Where's my other 'ho when I need her.


p.p.p.s.: Talk of religion and politics can only lead to trouble. Please move this thread to the Politics forum

\

 

[Bud Plug]

i read it. you said people should not be permitted to discuss their religious beliefs at work because its disruptive. you may have seen soccer riots in europe or seen fights in bars over sports rivalaries in North America. Should we ban discussions of sports at work too?

Yes, were there evidence that sports rivalries caused the same violence in North American workplaces as they do in UK soccer stadiums, I'd support banning discussions of sports at work as well.

If most people were not, in fact, children who have merely advanced in age but not maturity, there'd be a lot less less rules and a lot more freedom. However, children need rules because they can't control their own behaviour. Just think, if people were all grown up we wouldn't need rules against sexual harassment in the workplace either. Obviously, that isn't the reality we live in.

Fortunately, sports fans in NA haven't yet embraced a culture of violence, so feel free to head to the water cooler!

 

[ruck]

And you might want to re-read my original post again too. Cuz it's clear that it just ain't getting through to you.
Nowhere did I state you're not entitled to your religious beliefs (selective reading I see; boy, that's something you'd never expect a Bible thumper do

Choice words for a reply. If YOU read my posts, you would see that I am anything but a religious nut or a "bible thumper". I am agnostic.
Selective reading I see, boy, that's something you'd never expect from a pompous ass.

 

[ruck]

The whole point of Christmas, in a religious form is to celebrate Christ's birth. Which is fine, if you're into that sort of thing. On a side note, Christ wasn't even born on the 25th of December, considering they had a different calender they went by.

Another interesting thing to note is the anti-religous sentiment equalling the zealousness of religious nuts. For every one person who spouts religious fervor, there are 2 or more anti-religious nuts who spout anti-religious fervor.

In our free country, it's a right and privilege to follow what you will. It's also our right to spout on and on and on about shit that most people don't care shit about. The point is, if you don't like to hear about Christmas from religious fanatics, then just ignor them. We ignor homeless people all the time. Surely it's not that hard to ignor a religious "crazy man".

Elf, I know what you meant and after reading your response to neo-winston, I thought I'd clarify the meaning of the title of this "great" holiday. Yes commercialization of religious holidays have taken away the true tradition of Christmas, but don't be an ass and detract the true meaning for those who truly believe. It's the same as calling a Muslim an idiot during Ramadan. I for one would not miss a meal for that sort of thing but still hold respect for those that do because they have such dedication to something, anything, which in our current modern society, dedication is something that is severely lacking.

If you want to celebrate Christmas as a free for all, buy and spend and give and recieve, fine, do so. If you want to celebrate it praising Christ, fine, do so. It's a free country, exercise your freedom.

 

[Dr F]

My standard greeting for this time of year is "Happy Holidays". It's not because I'm anti-Christmas, it's because we have two holidays. Now I could say "Merry Christmas and have a Happy New Year" but... I GOT SHIT TO DO!!!!!

Christmas is the time of year when people of all faiths come together in spirit of harmony and worship Jesus Christ.

- F out

 

[ruck]

Interesting post. Lots of agnostics and atheists believe in freedom of religion, whether for the purpose of keeping the peace among fueding religious groups, or in order to be protected from persecution by these groups for not being religious. It's not often that an agnostic supports freedom of religion because he actively supports the religious observances. Why would anyone positively support religious observances that they don't subscribe to or believe in? It doesn't make any sense to me.

I positively support religious people because it is their choice. I am a true believer of freedom of expression, speech and religion. I have my choice of not believing in organized religion and positively respect those who believe in organized religion. I am not scared of persecution nor am I succumbing to some kind of societal pressure.

I respect people who can take a stand, whether popular or not, and diligently support their stance as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

Side note for those who think Muslims are the root of all evil. Christianity has killed more people in the name of religion than any other religion in the history of humankind. The khoran expressly forbids the harming of individuals but the book and it's message has been distorted by extremists. The same kind of extremist thinking that probably led to the crusades.