my take on the demimonde debate

[canuckscientist]

Yikes,
I just wasted 30 minutes going through the endless debate about demimonde and privacy issues. The whole thing was sufficiently annoying enough for me to feel compelled to post a response. As a long-time lurker, sometime contributor, and occasional user of SP's for recreation, I have often found TERB to provide useful information that I consider before I make my hobbying decisions. Based on what I have read, I have a few clear opinions that I want to share, not because I feel I am at all qualified to have any insight, but more because I think a lot of guys out there probably feel the same way I do...
1) I am ridiculously fortunate to work on Bay St in a position that earns me more than your average NHL defenceman on a yearly basis. While my T4 doesn't make my opinons more valid or less, I want to clearly make the point that I, like a lot of guys on this board, have a lot to potentially lose professionally if my affairs weren't handled with complete discretion.
2) I can understand completely why SP's are concernced about their safety, and have the absolute right to safeguard themselves by sharing information about potential threats.
3) Unfortunately, I also am concernced about my "safety", both physically and professionally, and I too have the right to safeguard myself

To date, I obviously have been way way way too open with SP's regarding my first name, cell number, vacation destinations and so on. When the big escort agency bust occurred and the media was talking about client lists, I took comfort knowing that the more expensive, independent SP's I was seeing weren't the type to keep records. Now, in light of what I am reading about Demimonde, I am not so sure. I recognize that Demimonde is only there for dangerous clients, and I agree entirely that SP's should take every precaution to be safe, but now I am recognizing that I should take every precaution as well...I have no idea who the lady who takes my call to see my favorite independent is, I have no real idea how they maintain their records, nor if she will ever find herself in a position so desperate that she considers extorting me or calling my number back to confess her sins (like what happened to blackjack). The only thing I really know about any girl I am seeing is how hot she looks on her website, and whether a reviewer that I trust has recommended her, and that is definitely not enough to entrust her with anything "personal" regarding my ID. Alright, enough rambling. Probably only 1 out of 100 escorts would consider using your identity against you, but even that is too big of a risk for me. Based on all that I read..

1) I will never see lyla. She seems like she has a successful practise as a SP, but a more argumentative and belligerent person I have yet to meet on line.
2) I guess I will never see laura and siobhan, which is too bad because they both look awesome and seem to be fantastic companions according to their reviewers, and while they should do everything in their powers to remain safe, I can't let their safety concerns and the possibility that they will post client details on their site interfere with my needs for safety and discretion.
3) Badkat, I would love to meet you...you make clear succinct arguments and seem to have your head on straight. If only we could arrange a meeting somehow without sharing phone numbers...

Thanks for the opportunity to blabber on...

 

[TravellingGuy]

Thank you Siobhan

I was not going to post the information of clients...from the very beginning I was against it. So I fail to see how you get the idea that I would post client details...since I was openly against it everywhere.

Siobhan

Well then I for one owe you an apology, even though I never said anything against you, I got this feeling that you were for a client list not against it. I'm sure others got this feeling as well, but thanks for correcting us.

 

[TravellingGuy]

Re: Excellent post

Great post, echoes my feelings pretty closely.

I can honestly say that in five or so years of following this board, BadKat seems the most graceful and together, and clearly values discretion.

I found Badkat's web site a couple years ago while living in LA and I was very impressed (she's probably the reason I found this board at all). I've never had the pleasure of meeting the lovely lady, however I hold her in the highest regard for her opinions and her professionalism (even more so now).

 

[KBear]

Siobhan, it could be the collection and maintenance of personal information that is a concern. I have no clue where you stand on that issue.

In a thread not too long ago one of the SPs commented that if she were to get pregnant, she would have no trouble tracking down which client was the father, if she wanted too. Perhaps many of the SPs are organised enough to maintain such a running database.

There are lists of reasons, and I am sure many more stories, as to why clients should keep their personal information, personal. After all, shit happens, and it is always best to plan ahead.

 

[The Challenger]

Yikes,
. . . I want to clearly make the point that I, like a lot of guys on this board, have a lot to potentially lose professionally if my affairs weren't handled with complete discretion. . . Based on all that I read..

1) I will never see lyla. She seems like she has a successful practise as a SP, but a more argumentative and belligerent person I have yet to meet on line.
2) I guess I will never see laura and siobhan, which is too bad because they both look awesome and seem to be fantastic companions according to their reviewers, and while they should do everything in their powers to remain safe, I can't let their safety concerns and the possibility that they will post client details on their site interfere with my needs for safety and discretion.
3) Badkat, I would love to meet you...you make clear succinct arguments and seem to have your head on straight. If only we could arrange a meeting somehow without sharing phone numbers...

You HAMMERED the nail on the head on that one!! I have a hard time believing that "Demimonde" is about SP safety. It is about power and control; the ability to edit negative reviews and still keep the "shills" a flowing. It is about controlling the information presented through the real or perceived threat of landing on a Bad John's list.

Not only could your hobbying career be ended through subversion (at least the TERB reviews are public domain) but should you like to hmmmmm 'Ole Macdonalds Farm' while doing it doggie style with your favourite SP, you could find the LE knocking at the door and asking what you know about pig farming.

Lastly, the only reason Kathleen is getting the boots put to her by the Demimonde Crew is that the men on this board genuinely like her regardless of whether they have met her or not. The point about security, dual IP's and rules are nothing more than BS offered to cover a cat fight in progress.

 

[Willywants]

Are There Any Forwards Here??

Everybody's playing defense!
It is no doubt a shame that SP's must protect themselves from bad clients, testimony to a sick society, and it is no less a shame that clients feel the need to protect themselves from possible unscrupulous SP's!
Is there a solution?
How much further can the word "discretion" be stretched?
It appears on most agency and Indy sites already as tacit, offered and expected!
It's getting to the point where the "street" is looking like the safest option, from a security perspective, not a health one!
Perhaps, albeit after the fact, a condition of an encounter should have the SP surface all personal information divulged to secure that first meeting, and erase or destroy it in front of the client!
Time for said activity not to be included in the time contracted for!
The client, then established, can become a regular with no hassles!
The only other solution would be for everyone to quit!!
Where's the fun in that????

Willywants (to continue living on the edge! Oops! I just fell off!)

 

[canuckscientist]

siobhan

I apologize if I gave the impression in my post that you weren't completely discrete or trustworthy. That was not my intent. You are one of the few sp's that I would love to see. My point is more along the lines that you girls need to protect yourselves from the 1 out of 100 clients that are bad. But I need to protect myself from the 1 out of 100 sp's that are bad. I can do that by checking reviews and only seeing girls that meet my criteria and are well reviewed by people I trust. Like you for instance. And to meet you I would need to use a land line phone that identifies me or book a hotel room that would also identify me. Again, all well and good because I am comfortable with you. But I am not comfortable with any of that info ever finding its way into the hands of sp's that I haven't chosen via demimonde or any other means. I know you would only post there if you had a horrible experience with me, but it still concerns me. I think demimonde should stay, because sp safety is more important in the big picture than my job, but it sure gives me something to think about. I hope you understand my point...

 

[Jenn_angel]

I am going to try to make this short...

I am well known for posting often, yet I am one of those who is againts the list.

I do not have a problem with people listing information on abbusive clients; However, I think that keeping a list or records is wrong... I personally do not keep information on clients... I have programmed a few phone numbers which Iwas asked to program... But I don't have anything more then... Mike - 1p.m. Written down... I do however recognise phone numbers or email addresses from time to time... I have a fairly good memory... I will not lie as it would be pointless...

I remeber every appointment I have ever had... And that is how it goes.

I respect the fact that this issue is touchy... But how I feel is this... And I hope this is the last time I have to say this...

I will not be providing information... I will attempt to ensure people I can verify do not have incorrect information posted... And that is the best I can do. (This being incorrect damaging details)

To the women who are pushing for this list... Please... I beg you... Do not do this...

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I guess I'll start with the positive. I fully believe that sp's have the right to harness the technology of the internet to make their business safer and more effective. I think the idea of making bad or dangerous client lists is an inherently good one as I'm sure the ladies out there get exposed to quite a range of risks and anything that may mitigate that is a positive step. And personally, I don't really care what happens to the personal info of some dirtbag who abuses the sp's he visits.

What worries me is this idea of connecting known TERB poster's user info with personal info gathered by sp' and building an online database. Frankly, the idea is really scary.

No one on this board can convince me that said database would be secure. Ask anyone who knows better and they will tell you the minute you plug in that network card/modem your system is vulnerable. Granted there are steps a good admin can take to secure a system, but new ways to circumvent and exploit security practices are being developed daily.

"In the battle between warhead and armor, the warhead wins in the end.."

If www.whitehouse.gov can be hacked over and over again with relative ease, by so called "script-kiddies", what hope is there for this database?

Especially if it's going to be hosted by the provider for demimonde. A scant few minutes worth of homework revealed a whole wealth of information, none of it making me feel any better about the security of their servers. In fact it only made things worse as they are using an OS for their servers which has been rated very poorly in the security department and which is in fact considered a joke to most experts in the network security trade. I'd feel a whole lot safer knowing the page was being served by some sort of *nix box and the latest build of Apache. But I'd still be concerned.

Now, I'm definitely not encouraging anyone to go out and try anything they might find out there. Most of it is well beyond the knowledge of the average user, but I provide it to back up my point about network security. You can't guarantee 100% security. And anyone who does is underestimating the abilities of scores of pros out there, has no real clue what they are talking about, or is full of it plain and simple.

Ladies, please keep these things in mind. I completely respect your desire to increase your safety, but I can't see what this reviewer database can accomplish except putting a chill on the business. Maybe one of you can better justify it to me, but it seems the risks outweigh the reward. Stick to your bad client lists and consider moving demimonde to a server with a more secure and robust OS.

Just my thoughts.......


(PS- In my original posts I provided some pretty specific technical information, which upon reflection I decided to remove so as to not encourage any unsavoury ideas and to avoid being accused of posting "confidential" information. I'm happy to go into the specifics of my concerns should it become necessary to defend my point, however, and I would remind people that there is a lot of information made public and easily and legally obtainable with a minimum of effort and expertise the minute you put a server up, so be careful and don't cry foul when/if somebody uses it. I also don't intend this as a threat or a flame, but a reasonable concern that I think the admins of this proposed database should take into consideration)

 

[Samantha Jones]

I agree Dr Gonzo

I, and other ladies that have recently phoned me, naively assumed when Demimonde began that there would be a secure, members -only area where only sp's wold have access.
All I can do at this point is plead ignorance (maybe the heat & humidity of the summer?
It has , unfortunately, become obvious that either the site can, as you say , be hacked into- if someone has the knowledge and the motivation enough; But even more so- and possibly more dangerous- is the distinct possibility/probability that information on that site will be shared by some sp (s) with male clients, friends, & members of other boards.
This defeats the purpose , exposes everyone (client, sp, families) . to risks that no-one needs added to their lives.

Because of these points I had to recently come to the decision to not participate. Having been on the receiving end of such animosity myself is enough to make me think twice before putting anyone else at risk in future. If anything I have ever said has given any person undue grief I wish to sincerely apologize.

 

[Willywants]

Raiding The Larder!

There seems to be a thread running within the thread here!
I am picking up something either subliminely, by innuendo or by overt comments!
While safety and security on both sides of the fence are the primary and most important issues at hand, it seems that a slight animosity exists in the SP world! Whether it relates to a competitive spirit in a competitive business, or to a real concern for some questionable business practices on the part of some SP's, I am not sure, nor should I really care, except for the safety and security of my own self!
But there appears to be an expressed concern about "regular clientele" and holding on to same! Do I misinterpret, am I naive, or do SP's, at some level, try to lure clients of other SP's away??
Would a published list of client information generate a telemarketing effort by some SP's to sell their wares?
Repeat business is the backbone and desire of most businesses selling a product or service! I would expect any SP who has developed a regular clientele to covet that ongoing, hassle free business! Kathleen makes a good argument in that regard!
As ridiculous as it may appear, perhaps the waters flow a lot deeper than the surface safety, security concerns suggest!
While the SP strives for monogamy of sorts, that being select few clients, the clients themselves are polygomous, wanting, for the most part to experience variety! At what point does an SP become possessive? To what ends would she go to protect her business, either by slamming the abandoning client, or taking out retribution on her fellow, "thieving" SP?
I apologize if I am off base here, but having read all the issues and concerns on the Demimonde threads, I picked up a vibe that is hard to explain! To me, it appears to have woven itself through the issues and perhaps lends more credibility to the need for more anonymity!
Ladies! Weed out the bad, as you must, and by any means at your disposal, but leave the good guys alone!

Willywants (to open his heart, not his personal portfolio!)

 

[sneakylong]

Maybe its not that complicated!

Willy,

I have been a lurker and infrequent poster for the past several months. I have come to appreciate your posts for the wit that you posses as well as your ability to cut to the chase in a very tasteful way. I think you have again brought to a light the distinct possiblity that there could be alterior motives for some of the SPs posting on Demimonde. As with any group of people, the majority may serve a more noble purpose, there are, and always will be, the minority that will tend to serve themselves. While your take on the situation may in fact be true I would offer up a more simplistic yet realistic option about the problems on Demimonde. When a group of women get together, whether in person or in cyberspace, the result seems to have one certainty..............can you say catfight. Remember "Hell hath no furry....."

Sneakylong, the simple minded man

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

An excellent point, Willy, and tactfully put as always. The law of unintended consequences rears it's ugly head on a few different levels here.

And I think you've hit on something as well, sneakylong.

Interesting how such complexity can arise from simplistic beginnings....but that's why you gotta love chaos theory....