Nazi World

[Aardvark154]

When did the war start? When did the Americans stop selling to both sides and join the war? When did the war end?

I was never very good at ancient history.

Holy Cow you must be young.

For purposes of this little discussion: The War in Europe began 1 September, 1939, the British and French Ultimatums to Germany expired September 3, 1939, Canada declared war on Germany September 10, 1939, Germany declared War on the U.S.A. on December 11, 1941. Hence as far as the war in Europe was concerned the United States was a Neutral Power from September 1, 1939 until December 11, 1941

Now look at the date of the sinking of the U.S.S. Ruben James.

 

[Petzel]

Stalingrad was not a strategic point, just about Stalin's pride. The Caucus oil might have been significant but that still would have been long and vulnerable supply lines. The Russians had enough numbers to continue fighting and reestablish production facilities further east. Without a significant increase in manpower and resources, Russia would be unlikely to be conquered. Even a Japanese invasion into the east would have suffered so much from the weather and distance to be ineffective (as they were a few years earlier).

I disagree. The battle of Stalingrad was a key point in the turning of the war and the fact that they lost Stalingrad was the beginning of the end. If the Nazis had crossed the Volga past Stalingrad they would've continued east into Russia.

 

[Petzel]

Hitler made insane decisions, like invading Russia just before winter, because he knew he was running out of time. He was decomposing both mentally and physically because of advanced syphilis. He also suffered from Parkinsons and was fed dangerous drugs by his quack doctor, which also impaired his judgement. So, if you do not have these disadvantages and you have the luxury of time, how would you have waged the war?

This is the first I've heard about him having syphilis!

 

[GhostPoon]

The book "Why the Allies Won" argues that the nazis could have won World War Two, but failed because of errors on the part of the nazi leadership. Pretend that one of the assassination attempts on Hitler succeeded and you replaced Hitler in the 1920s/1930s. What would you have done differently (and the same) to ensure that Germany conquered the world.

Should have held off on invading Russia until Battle of Britain was settled. If he had played his cards right, he might even have been able to form alliances with US and Britain to fight communist threat to the East.

Hitler should have also condemned Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour and severed alliance with Japanese immediately after the attack. Doing so might have deterred US from entering European conflict.

 

[Celticman]

........

Mod100 thanks for removing that sick and truly reprehensible comment.

 

[Rockslinger]

And the Germans didn't kill Russians at a 10:1 ratio.

I think our fellow TERBie is including unarmed Russian civilians, women and children in the 10-1 kill ratio.

 

[basketcase]

...

When the Germans fought an enemy that was organized, prepared, skilful and briefed in modern techniques, they got beaten. Just ask those RAF Fighter Command boys what happened in the Battle of Britain.[/COLOR]

Come on. You have to give the Germans credit for their amazing panzer victory over Polish cavalry .

 

[basketcase]

I disagree. The battle of Stalingrad was a key point in the turning of the war and the fact that they lost Stalingrad was the beginning of the end. If the Nazis had crossed the Volga past Stalingrad they would've continued east into Russia.

Being a key point was because both sides prided themselves about winning, not on Stalingrad having strategic importance. If both leaders hadn't based their egos on it, it was just another city on the steppe.

 

[babemagnet]

well, they couldn't really go west either because the Royal Navy was 20 times the size of the Kriegsmarine and Britain is surrounded by something called the sea. Basically, Hitler royally fucked up by going to war. He lucked in that the French collapsed so quickly and Stalin had just purged 90% of his competent generals. After 42, it was all downhill, fast and nasty for the Third Reich. They took the biggest, baddest and worst pounding that any country has ever gotten in a war and ended up totally pwned. Nothing glorious about any of that shit.

Did anyone else see the recent documentary about the battle of Britain and the why the Germans failed? It was quite interesting in that it showed how Britain was never close to being beaten by the Luftwaffe.The Brits cranked up production on 5 basic planes, under the supervision of Lord Beaverbrook. Their production outstripped the Germans all that year.They never failed to meet an incoming German air attack, mainly because of radar stations. The Germans turned their attention to bombing cities, which gave a respite to the RAF airfields. The messerschmitts were forced into acting as bomber escorts, which slowed them down, negating their speed and maneuverability advantage.
As pointed out. Britain was a naval superpower with a vast commonwealth ready to lend support. It's all about friends and connections. The Germans failed to achieve air superiority over Britain and their chances wouldn't have improved the following year. Once the Americans got involved it was game over.

 

[benstt]

Come on. You have to give the Germans credit for their amazing panzer victory over Polish cavalry .

It likely had more to do with Germans have numerical superiority on tanks and aircraft, and the combined arms tactics of blitzkrieg. Also, the Russians invaded from the other direction.

There's a myth that Poland threw horse cavalry against armour. Poland had tanks, and some that outclassed some of the German models, but Germany had far more. Note that Germany used horses quite a bit in their campaigns for transport; they hadn't fully mechanized yet.

Give the German army credit. Until the US and British trained up and prepared for invasions, and the Russians learned some deadly lessons and regrouped, the Germans kicked ass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_September_Campaign#Poland

 

[mrsCALoki]

Holy Cow you must be young.

For purposes of this little discussion: The War in Europe began 1 September, 1939, the British and French Ultimatums to Germany expired September 3, 1939, Canada declared war on Germany September 10, 1939, Germany declared War on the U.S.A. on December 11, 1941. Hence as far as the war in Europe was concerned the United States was a Neutral Power from September 1, 1939 until December 11, 1941

Now look at the date of the sinking of the U.S.S. Ruben James.

So the war was 6 years, and for the first 2 years the Americans were supplying metal and explosives and stuff to both sides? The Japanese bombed pearl Harbour and the Americans joined the war? After that died off the Germans were no longer able to produce enough planes etc ?

So really, it was the Japanese that doomed the Nazi Plan?

 

[Aardvark154]

So the war was 6 years, and for the first 2 years the Americans were supplying metal and explosives and stuff to both sides? The Japanese bombed pearl Harbour and the Americans joined the war? After that died off the Germans were no longer able to produce enough planes etc ?

So really, it was the Japanese that doomed the Nazi Plan?

Yes roughly if you are only speaking for instance of Canadian involvement (the Japanese had a head start since the Second Sino-Japanese War which officially began in 1937 ran right into WW II)

No, not really, what the European Subsidiaries of some American Firms did was provide technical consulting services to Germany. Most supplies, finished goods, and technical consulting services provided by U.S. Firms went to the allied Powers particularly the U.K. and to a lesser extent Canada.

Yes, the Japanese Attack as an act of War (and the attack on the Phillippines a few hours latter) brought the U.S. into War with Japan (and the U.S. officially declared war the next day), the U.S.A. was not in a state of War with Germany or Italy until both declared War on the U.S. on December 11, 1941.

The Cause and effect were indirect. The fact that from mid-August 1942 on, Germany was subject to both daylight bombing by the U.S. Army Air Force and night bombing by the RAF (with crews from the RCAF, RAAF, RNZAF) certainly had a significant impact. However, what in many ways changed everything was the arrival in large numbers of the P-51 Mustang (as previously mentioned a RAF design) in the ETO which made it possible to provide fighter escort all the way to Berlin and really was the aircraft (serving with not only the USAAF, but also the RAF and RCAF) which destroyed the Luftwaffe.

 

[probyn]

You guys are not answering the original thread. How would you have waged the war to ensure victory?

 

[Aardvark154]

You guys are not answering the original thread. How would you have waged the war to ensure victory?

I wouldn't have.

 

[basketcase]

... The Germans turned their attention to bombing cities, which gave a respite to the RAF airfields. T....

That is what many historians feel as the thing that made things easier for the British militarily. One messed up German plane drops bombs on London, the RAF retaliate on Berlin and Hitler overrules the military and orders bombing of cities when they could have wiped out all the radar installations and airfields near France.

 

[basketcase]

...

There's a myth that Poland threw horse cavalry against armour. Poland had tanks, and some that outclassed some of the German models, but Germany had far more. Note that Germany used horses quite a bit in their campaigns for transport; they hadn't fully mechanized yet....

I could be wrong but I believe that although it wasn't standard but there was one cavalry regiment that chose to do so.

 

[basketcase]

I wouldn't have.

To quote the movies (in your best computer voice) "the only winning move is not to play."

 

[dirkd101]

To think that Germany could have won the war is a stretch, but won the war in Europe and held onto their gains is not too far fetched. If assassinated I believe the war would have been brought to a close much sooner, but if he wasn't and let the generals run the war the way they wanted, then a German mainland Europe would not have been out of the question.
Germany needed resources, they had as much as they could get with their dominance of mainland Europe, they needed oil though, they could have had this with taking the middle east. Their mistake here, Japan's bombing of Pearl Harbour and Germany's declaration of war on the U.S. As stated, in their Axis alliance, Germany should have pushed for Japan to invade Russia, where the resources they needed lay, coinciding with a German attack on the Soviets. Mistakes; Germany declaring war on the Americans, thus drawing them in and Germany going it alone in Russia. Further problems existed within the Russian campaign. Hitler taking charge is the biggest problem. Going it alone may have worked, had the generals been left to decide, they where not far from Moscow when things went wrong. They needed the Caucusus oil fields now because of the failure in the middle east, thereby spliting their forces. Hitlers obsession with Stalingrad, where the 6th army should have been allowed to pull out of, saving a solid fighting force, thusly setting up the next failures to come. Kursk being a big part of that. If the 6th army had been able to pull out of Stalingrad, they may have been able to consolidate and hold for the winter. Too many resources were spent on Stalingrad, setting up the German army in Russia for certain failure.
Earlier in the war, the Germans should have annihilated the Brits at Dunkirk, not in preparation for an invasion of Britain, but to buy time in their conquest of the rest of mainland Europe and then the Middle East. The U-boats and the big German battleships kept the Brits at bay. When the Brits did go after the big ships, quite an obsesssion, but for a reason, they lost alot of men and a few ships. The U-boats could have and would have kept the Brits from being able to wage war. They needed a stronger Italian ally to help in their conquest of the Middle East and part of Africa. Once this area is consolidated, then with Japan's help they could have turned east.
Some of Hitlers bigest mistakes were his meddling in tactics and plans. Wasting time on Britain, loosing too much time there and too many pilots. Not having good allies and a proper plan of action to succeed. Japan bringing the Americans into the war was the most crucial mistake made.

 

[rld]

To think that Germany could have won the war is a stretch, but won the war in Europe and held onto their gains is not too far fetched. If assassinated I believe the war would have been brought to a close much sooner, but if he wasn't and let the generals run the war the way they wanted, then a German mainland Europe would not have been out of the question.
Germany needed resources, they had as much as they could get with their dominance of mainland Europe, they needed oil though, they could have had this with taking the middle east. Their mistake here, Japan's bombing of Pearl Harbour and Germany's declaration of war on the U.S. As stated, in their Axis alliance, Germany should have pushed for Japan to invade Russia, where the resources they needed lay, coinciding with a German attack on the Soviets. Mistakes; Germany declaring war on the Americans, thus drawing them in and Germany going it alone in Russia. Further problems existed within the Russian campaign. Hitler taking charge is the biggest problem. Going it alone may have worked, had the generals been left to decide, they where not far from Moscow when things went wrong. They needed the Caucusus oil fields now because of the failure in the middle east, thereby spliting their forces. Hitlers obsession with Stalingrad, where the 6th army should have been allowed to pull out of, saving a solid fighting force, thusly setting up the next failures to come. Kursk being a big part of that. If the 6th army had been able to pull out of Stalingrad, they may have been able to consolidate and hold for the winter. Too many resources were spent on Stalingrad, setting up the German army in Russia for certain failure.
Earlier in the war, the Germans should have annihilated the Brits at Dunkirk, not in preparation for an invasion of Britain, but to buy time in their conquest of the rest of mainland Europe and then the Middle East. The U-boats and the big German battleships kept the Brits at bay. When the Brits did go after the big ships, quite an obsesssion, but for a reason, they lost alot of men and a few ships. The U-boats could have and would have kept the Brits from being able to wage war. They needed a stronger Italian ally to help in their conquest of the Middle East and part of Africa. Once this area is consolidated, then with Japan's help they could have turned east.
Some of Hitlers bigest mistakes were his meddling in tactics and plans. Wasting time on Britain, loosing too much time there and too many pilots. Not having good allies and a proper plan of action to succeed. Japan bringing the Americans into the war was the most crucial mistake made.

Having just about anybody in charge of the Luftwaffe other than Goering would not have hurt either.

 

[Rockslinger]

Wasting time on Britain, loosing too much time there and too many pilots.

He had no choice but to "waste" some time on Britain as it was Britain (and France) that declared war on Germany and landed a 338,000 men force in France. Maybe AFTER Dunkirk he wasted time and aircrafts in the Battle of Britain.
I heard some reasons why Hitler halted the assault on the Brits at Dunkirk such as bad weather, low on supplies, etc. but still he had the Brits cornered.