Negotiating

[Jabba]

*Sigh*
So, I was reading a thread on the rosie board about negotiating with an SP for services. The posts are all over the map. The posters are immensely articulate and strident and demanding and reasoning and...and...and... I won't comment on the other board 'cuz it's too stupidly biased against anyone who raises a contrarian point of view. Anyway, I thought I could raise the issue here without rankelling too many hackles. Maybe not - who knows. Maybe this thread will get killed quick.

The debate rages on doesn't it?

I hate to sound like a person who wants to beat an SP down to the lowest common denominator, and truly, I'm not into doing that. But dudes & dudettes - negotiation is the art of the deal. SPs have a service. Johns have the cash. Hmmm, is there any business to be had today? It's called a meeting of the minds and therein lies the fodder for debate. Yet, if I were to take the conversation on the other board at cash value, there is no reason for debate - you pay as much as it takes for the SP to feel gratified with the transaction. No, according to the rosie board you will not have any independent thought or values. Again, I just have to heave a sigh.

Let's just say that despite all the high-minded business values so artfully articulated in the other board, negotiation still carries on. Those who don't recognize this as a business practice just simply lose-out.

What are your thoughts?

 

[curiousm7]

I hear ya. I never start the negotiations. I always verify rate. If it is in my comfort zone, I book. If it is not, I am straight-forward and I tell the SP that it is out of my range and thank her for taking the time to chat with me. Inevitably, one of three things happen:
1) she breaks of communication
2) she says "thanks hun, let me know if you change your mind" (or similar)
3) she says "if you can come at [x] time, I can give you a discount"

It is only at scenario 3 that I negotiate with lovely indy girls.
My theory is that if she starts the negotiation, there is a better chance that service will not suffer at the lower rate...she is less "insulted".

*Sigh*
So, I was reading a thread on the rosie board about negotiating with an SP for services. The posts are all over the map. The posters are immensely articulate and strident and demanding and reasoning and...and...and... I won't comment on the other board 'cuz it's too stupidly biased against anyone who raises a contrarian point of view. Anyway, I thought I could raise the issue here without rankelling too many hackles. Maybe not - who knows. Maybe this thread will get killed quick.

The debate rages on doesn't it?

I hate to sound like a person who wants to beat an SP down to the lowest common denominator, and truly, I'm not into doing that. But dudes & dudettes - negotiation is the art of the deal. SPs have a service. Johns have the cash. Hmmm, is there any business to be had today? It's called a meeting of the minds and therein lies the fodder for debate. Yet, if I were to take the conversation on the other board at cash value, there is no reason for debate - you pay as much as it takes for the SP to feel gratified with the transaction. No, according to the rosie board you will not have any independent thought or values. Again, I just have to heave a sigh.

Let's just say that despite all the high-minded business values so artfully articulated in the other board, negotiation still carries on. Those who don't recognize this as a business practice just simply lose-out.

What are your thoughts?

 

[DukeSSk]

Well, I don't see how this "hobby" can be compared to your average business transaction (e.g. tailor, restaurant, etc...). In addition, if you're pushing for a $20-$40 discount, there's at least 5 men she told to try some other time because she booked you, and chances are they'll pay full price without even thinking about negotiating.

Anyways, all that to say that the ladies have all the pricing power. What's the ratio of client-to-provider? 100-to-1? Not much we can do about it, beside going to see someone else.

P.S. I'm not trying to take sides here. This is just my humble opinion of the subject.

 

[curiousm7]

I thank my lucky stars that you are in the range I can afford... ;-)

I say negotiations should only occur when negotiation is offered but don't solicit it. (That's the point of my post above)...

Here's my personal take on it.

My rates are fair for the industry today. They are exactly the same as I was offering three years ago. I haven't raised them. Many girls who have been around as long as I have HAVe raised them, and I do believe I could easily charge 20 to even 60 more and still do well.

But I don't. Because I have no reason to. I think my rates are fair, and I like keeping them on the lower (now I know there are girls with lower, and I am not trying to start a debate on low/high rates), but I like keeping them on the lower end because I know it makes me more accessible to some gentlemen.

So, when I get someone asking me to give them a half hour for 100, or 150 for an hour... honestly? It pisses me off. I am not new to the business, I know what I'm worth. I am not desperate for money. I charge a fair, very reasonable rate for what I have to offer. If you can't afford it, then I'm sorry... but I'm not going to give you a discount.

On the other board there are now so many comparisons being put up, and I've stopped reading that thread. You can't compare your SP to buying a house, or ordering a meal at McDonalds.

I am however aware that many girls DO give discounts, which does encourage people to ask. But just as many don't. And I personally would not go in and ask my service providers (which to me are my manicurist, hairstylist, taxi driver, etc), for a discount. It's just not how I roll, and I couldn't fathom anyone else doing it. But I've heard that they do, which amazes me, but hey, what do I know? All I know for sure is what I do. I don't haggle. And I don't accept hagglers. End of story.

The best advice I can give you men is this: I guess I can understand why some people think everything is up for negotiation. But remember, in this business, you're basically asking the woman to negotiate with her body. And some women, like myself, get really offended when that happens. So don't be surprised if your request gets you blacklisted. You may not think that's fair, but that is honestly what can happen. Because we can get personally offended by it. And really, is saving that $20 really worth NOT getting to be with that SP?

 

[Jabba]

"The best advice I can give you men is this: I guess I can understand why some people think everything is up for negotiation. But remember, in this business, you're basically asking the woman to negotiate with her body. And some women, like myself, get really offended when that happens. So don't be surprised if your request gets you blacklisted. You may not think that's fair, but that is honestly what can happen. Because we can get personally offended by it. And really, is saving that $20 really worth NOT getting to be with that SP?"

And truthfully Cleo, I can see your POV.
But, I think it can also be said that we, as men, are not "asking" the woman for anything. It is the woman herself who is offering the service which just happens to involve her body. We, as service takers (sorry for the awkward term), are offering our money. The concept of fair exchange is up for debate and the point of this thread is to have a common understanding between service giver & money giver. Value however, is a concept of perception & perhaps that's where the road hits the pavement (sorry for all the cliches).

I'm in the service industry myself & I don't waste my time or energy on personal rancor on those who want to fish for discounts. As a matter of fact, I build a "fudge factor" in my estimates for that very purpose. I seriously doubt a black list is useful for more than but a handful of SPs here in the city. There is a steady influx of SPs knocking at the door from out of town. They don't give a flying F**k about black lists. All they want is cash & they know how to get it.

 

[BootyLoving]

In a service industry without standardization and where quality is dependent on difficult to measure variable, price is dependent on reputation, consistency, beauty (in the eyes of the beholder) and initial impression.

It's nice that everyone seems to have a feel of the current average rate. Some girls can request more for her time because demand for her qualities out weigh her time resources.

Negotiation is a delicate matter because we are not negotiating body, we are negotiating service. I've negotiated before, and there are techniques to the subject. Unlike negotiating for a product that doesn't really change with a price drop, here we are negotiating mostly for a service that could be quickly soured without careful approach.

Take your chance, but always be ready for both pleasant and unwanted outcome. It is an art that not everyone is skilled in. Even I know when to not negotiate rate. Sometimes I take it at a different angle and try to include more services instead. Value is perceptive, and what usually cost $300/h a couple of years ago, is now floating at $220 and it goes with economical condition.

Who can tell me the standard hourly fair in Alberta?

 

[Catherine St.Claire]

I have written long winded posts concerning negotiating and this morning while rereading the other boards thread, a quote of my words was brought up and it made me reflect on who exactly I had written those words for. I was obviously in a place emotionally where I was feeling intense when I wrote it. The passion behinds the words startled me because I don't actually remember writing them. I obviously wrote it as it is exactly what I believe to be true so I sat over my coffee in the sunshine and thought about it. I remembered all the years where I sat in an agency car, talking to guys who tried to negotiate a hh rate that I already only made $55 on after I paid agency and drivers fees. I remembered their insistence and indignation when I passed on their offer because I knew if I declined then another call would come in shortly and perhaps he wouldn't be negotiating or at least be reasonable in his request. I knew declining was a good business decision because I was building a long term business, not looking for a cash grab that night. I never took it personally, it is just the suchness of life but I watched girls accept negotiated rates out of desperation and experienced the fallout afterwards because once they do it, it is something they will do again and again then the spiral downward starts. It's these men that won't take no for an answer that I have addressed my words to, not the gentlemen that ask about rates and graciously accept when a firm "no" is the response.

Like Cleo, I have received requests asking if I can do any better on my consideration and if his initial contact and communications were appealing then I don't take offence, I realize that he is simply asking and it isn't a reflection of my value or his perception of my worth. I gently decline, leaving the ball in his court to either accept my rates or move on; no hard feelings. Like Cleo, I feel I price myself at the low end of my market niche and I occasionally advertise a 1 hour experiences so those who want to dip their toe in the water can do so without the 2 hour minimum I usually require. I have honed by ability to sell my service to those I want to cater to and I don't feel the need to negotiate because I know if I can get them in the door the first time, they will see the value for dollar that I consistently provide and will most likely come back often if I've done my job to the best of my abilities. Like Cleo, my rates have sat stagnant, mine since '04 and I don't think lowering them is in mine or my guests best interests. I have at times accommodated established guests who ran into a financial challenge and needed to revisit my consideration in order to continue seeing me and I don't have an issue with that. I can easily adjust our time frame to fit his current financial situation if I enjoy him but he has already proven himself by coming thru the door at my asked rate. I am not robot and I'm not heartless; I value my guests but if you aren't a guest yet, I don't know that you are someone I would enjoy spending time with or that you will become a regular so why should I lower my rate out of the gate? For me, the answer is easy. I don't do it. In my experience, those that I have negotiated my rates with do not become return guests, are more work during playtime and I don't enjoy them as people which is all I need to know. They do not want to ever pay my full fee even after they've met me and will revisit rates to try and get an even better deal again and again and that wears thin all too quickly.

I don't have an issue with the gentlemen that have an innate need to ask for a discount but they need to be prepared for the reaction that may come. I laugh quietly at those that offer me half of my rate because they are young/good looking/well hung/charming and they consider me lucky that they even offered to pay given that I'm still working at my age as that must mean I am all used up and relatively worthless. I'm not assuming this intention on their part, they actually put it into words! Others can become aggressive and abusive, they start name calling and expect that I see the truth in their words and give in to their demands. They are simply delusional. These are the men that my rants are directed at. The ones that feel entitled to negotiate because I am a whore and therefore not a person. I am crystal clear on the fact that these men do not represent the majority of the men who visit providers but it is easy for the cave men to taint the pool of reaction because we never know if the person on the other end of the communication is simply asking for the sake of asking or if they are one of "those" men that truly don't feel we are even human. Like the unethical provider that tarnishes our industry on a daily basis by abusing clients enmass and without conscience, these men consistently undermine our ability to distinguish between who is a decent person/client and who isn't. The fact that the neanderthal negotiator will contact multiple providers for days/weeks/months on end and consume our time by spoofing numbers and changing email addresses to hide their identity doesn't help either. It takes understanding and patience on both sides to see past the WOT's and treat each other with respect by not pushing or judging in a situation like this, just accept that it is what it is and if the fit isn't right; just move on.

I really like curiousm7's approach, it is definitely the most respectful way to approach setting up an appointment that works for both parties...

cat

 

[Celticman]

Some very good posts here. Catherine gives an insightful and balanced view from the escort side.

I like a deal (anything). I like to negotiate (anything). I can feel the temptation to negotiate a fee with an escort. After all, I negotiate the price of my cars and motorbikes, and the fees I pay Rogers. The bridge to cross when it comes to negotiating an escorts fee is that a session is a highly personal and intimate experience. It starts with polite communication, showing up on time clean and well dressed and in my case I always bring a small gift. If I combine the preceding with no attempt to negotiate then, hopefully, I have not only made a good first impression when I arrive at the door, but I have not set off any alarm bells for the lady. Perhaps if the lady's spidey senses are not on alert this will contribute to a good session. For me there are three important considerations when I want to see a lady. In important order:

1. The anticipation and fulfillment of a great experience

2. The time that I have to put into this. It includes the research time including reviews and comparative shopping and, importantly, the direct time involved in the session and the travel involved.

3. Lastly, the fee. When I ask myself, given the forgoing, does a $20 discount really matter to me?

So I do not ask for discounts. Of course, if any ladies decide "Gee Celticman, you are a great guy I am going to give you a deal today".............

 

[justfor]

I am speaking about my personal experience and point of view here. In my few years of hobbying, I have never ever negotiated or bargained with a lady. To me, I am looking for a good time and experience, the so-called gfe with the lady I have chosen, not a 15 min, in and out type of adventure. Negotiating will be, in my humble opinion, insulting and even if I am successful in talking down the price, I am certain the service and experience will suffer. I am not willing to take that chance. Even when I was visiting Asia a few years back, including many cities in China and Thailand, the well-known bargaining paradise, I had not bargained with a single SP. I wanted the beautiful girls I had invited to my hotel room to be happy, willing and to provide the best service.

That being said, I don't pay whatever a SP charges. What I mean is I have a mental cut-off point. If I find that the lady's fee is above that point, I simply move on even if I drool at her pictures, lol. There are just too many other beautiful ladies available in the market whose rates I can afford to pay.

 

[Pink Kitty Escorts]

If a fair comparision is to be made, then compare services with services, not a commodity with a service.

To say I " negotiate the price for a house, car or motorbike" then you are comparing an object to a person therefore you are objectifying the person. Which isn't a fair or right thing to do by most people's standards.

A more fair example would be going to the doctors, dentist or lawyers (especially good comparision as you are paying for essentially the same services rendered with a lawyer) and asking for a discount.

In most cases you will be shown the door, and I believe that to be the correct way to deal with negotation in this business as well. This is "want" not a "need" and it is a luxury. If you have to negotiate you are probably in the wrong hobby.

 

[curiousm7]

Heehee, I'm happy for that too

And I do agree with your posts about that - I meant to mention that in my above post actually. I see nothing at all wrong with that approach

Play time soon... ;-)

Does anybody mind if I start flirting and talking dirty with my favourite Cat?

 

[curiousm7]

Setting a personal cut-off is the only way to go. Like any activity, we need to budget and stay within it. I know from experience that the ladies are not insulted when we tell them "I know time with you is worth every penny but, I am on a budget and you are out of reach for me. Maybe we will get to meet one day"

For me personally, my 1/2 hr cap is $140 and hr is $220. That's it, that's all. My duo cap is $400 hr. I can't justify anything higher. Who I see is dependent on what I want. For example, I love greek sometimes and I have 3 I see who include it at $200. I love sensuality sometimes and there are several between $180-$220 who seriously make me feel sexy. And, of course, full on pse is still on my list and, again, I have a few in the $200-$220 range that I see.

I still search for that one who is loving and sensual when needed and full on, unrestricted pse when needed, within my range. I'll find her...I know it...then, well, variety may end and she'll probably get all my money. ;-)

I am speaking about my personal experience and point of view here. In my few years of hobbying, I have never ever negotiated or bargained with a lady. To me, I am looking for a good time and experience, the so-called gfe with the lady I have chosen, not a 15 min, in and out type of adventure. Negotiating will be, in my humble opinion, insulting and even if I am successful in talking down the price, I am certain the service and experience will suffer. I am not willing to take that chance. Even when I was visiting Asia a few years back, including many cities in China and Thailand, the well-known bargaining paradise, I had not bargained with a single SP. I wanted the beautiful girls I had invited to my hotel room to be happy, willing and to provide the best service.

That being said, I don't pay whatever a SP charges. What I mean is I have a mental cut-off point. If I find that the lady's fee is above that point, I simply move on even if I drool at her pictures, lol. There are just too many other beautiful ladies available in the market whose rates I can afford to pay.

 

[maurice93]

If a fair comparision is to be made, then compare services with services, not a commodity with a service.

To say I " negotiate the price for a house, car or motorbike" then you are comparing an object to a person therefore you are objectifying the person. Which isn't a fair or right thing to do by most people's standards.

A more fair example would be going to the doctors, dentist or lawyers (especially good comparision as you are paying for essentially the same services rendered with a lawyer) and asking for a discount.

In most cases you will be shown the door, and I believe that to be the correct way to deal with negotation in this business as well. This is "want" not a "need" and it is a luxury. If you have to negotiate you are probably in the wrong hobby.

First off,, I want to state that I don't negotiate the stated rates of a MP, and SP or an escort. I just move on if the price is not a fit.

But your using a somewhat poor example with lawyers or professional service firms (such as auditor or corporate lawyerss)... 1) Companies always negotiate the annual fee for services from consultants (such as auditors or other compliance work)., or negotiate and tender for lower hourly rates from corporate counsel or investment advice Its usually not based on your set hourly rate, and the decision is made based on the availability of resurces / time of year. 2) If the service fails to meet expectations (or if the consultant had to put in extra work to meat the deliverable) they will also dispute the legitimacy of those... claiming its the consultants fault. Should clients start putting out tenders on terb and ask for responses by PM from escorts? Ask for discounts after the fact from the escort if the service was not as advertised or not up to par?

Although I guess it's also based on the power of the buyer . If your just an individual your going to get the set rate at a firm. If a customer proposes to an SP, that they would like a reduced rate for seeing them 10 times, would they still be offended?

 

[Ms.DeViile]

Very well put.

 

[ixlr82]

"I'm still working at my age as that must mean I am all used up and relatively worthless"

Not even close CAT. You are still hot and a hoot in the bedroom. Age is just a number and if I had to give a number your still 20 cheers.

 

[maurice93]

As I mentioned before I never negotiate the set rates for MP, SP or dancers ($20 dance). I don't think its right.

But once it gets into extras I have no problem with negotiation. I was in a certain strip club in Toronto last week, and a dancer approaches me with a push for more. I am not certain if I want more than dances.. we go to the private area. The upsell push starts immediately. She quotes a rate before we even start (she brought it up which is not unusual for the club)... I said I will not pay that (but did not state no)... she quotes another rate.... once again I said too much. Eventually she went down to a rate that was good for me. I see no problem with this type of negotiation. But, I would have never negotiated the original $20 dance... but extras I think are very fair to discuss.

Another example of negotiation has occurred a few times at MP, where services may move beyond bodyslide. Whether the service is implied by her or I ask, I have no problem bringing up a price, and discussing it quickly... or if its not offered no big deal. I enjoy the body slide only and pay her fair rate for that service.

I was in a spa waiting room in Toronto some time ago, and I was talking to a client around 60. I was shocked to hear what he said. This spa has a certain percentage of more open minded girls .... and some less so, but yet still provide the stated body slide service (and in a good and sensual manner). He told me he sticks to higher mileage girls and tips them well, but on the odd occasion he sees someone new if they don't lick his balls or his dick they are not getting the $100 body slide fee. He claimed they didn't deserve it and he would pay them $70 or $80 and flat out tell them they did not earn any more. Frankly, I was stunned -- and wondered if this guy ever had any issues with mgmt... certainly he paid the girls well that did extras that he saw most often... but those that did nothing above body slide just got short paid. In no way do I support what he is doing, and I am surprised he got away with it. Maybe he had only tried it a few times recently, and it had not been reported to management.

 

[curiousm7]

That is the beauty of free thinking. Some SPs despise negotiators and some SPs encourage it...others are indifferent.

From a hobbyist point of view...if SP 1 offers a discount and/or negotiation, how are we to react when we encounter an SP who is insulted by it and tells us off?

Don't blame the player, blame the game. As I stated, I don't request them...instead, I move on if the price is too high for me. Sometimes a negotiation is offered without me asking...what's a guy to do? Say "No"?

Does anyone ever consider that girls choose a rate that they are comfortable with based on how much it will take for them to actually share their bodies with strangers? As much as it is a service, SPs are being paid to be completely vulnerable and available for sex and other nasty nasty things. Does anyone here ever feel that it is simply gross and degrading to try and bargain with a provider based on how they will service your penis? Don't people get turned off by those girls who are willing to give discounts and barter out of desperation for the business? Doesn't the whole haggling process just make the whole encounter more of a flea-market type transaction? It just seems like a very unclassy thing to do to bargain down a girl's prices because you'd like to pay less than her chosen fee to fuck her all for the sake of a "good deal"...

Just my thoughts on the issue - I was always an SP who vehemently abhorred bargain hunters (and I still have a strong distaste for them, obviously).

 

[Hector17]

First off,, I want to state that I don't negotiate the stated rates of a MP, and SP or an escort. I just move on if the price is not a fit.

Me too...there are some that I have really wanted to see, but alas...I just cant justify it. I have my faves and am happy.

 

[maurice93]

Thinking back to my post, I guess with SP's other than the hourly rate there is not much too negotiate.

When you get into the realm of services beyond that of a lap dance or a typical massage session, negotiations always have to come into play, because nothing is stated up front. We have all likely heard ridiculous quotes from dancers or MP's at various times.

 

[Pink Kitty Escorts]

The reality is this.. we can talk about it all we want, but at the end of the day there will always be guys looking for the "best deal" and spend their time looking for the best price in town.

For me, my time is worth more than that. If I had someone I liked, I wouldn't waste time trying to look out for the better price elsewhere. But guys, here's the really downside about all of this.. Most ladies I know, really appreciate tips. And often go the extra mile to ensure you have a great time, in hopes of extra generosity. When someone is already trying to grind a lady down on price, it's going to throw her mood off even if she does accept the offer. Whatever service you will get after that won't have the same effort in it.. So whatever money you have percieved you saved really cost you in the experience and probably was a much worse deal in the long run.

Nobody likes a cheapskate, for those of you who are in or have been in the service industry I am sure you hear this loud and clear.

It might be part of your culture to haggle, but trust me gentlemen this is one place where less is not more.