There was a couple of organizations said they would have designated electric vehicle parking spots with outlets once electric cars are on the market. Wal-mart was one I can't remember the other. As for charging times, I know there are batteries out there that can charge to 80% capacity in 10 minutes. As you would expect they are expensive to the point of not being practical. But the technology exists. It's only a matter of time before prices come down to make them viable. Look how laptops and cell phones have advanced batteries in the last decade. That demand for better technology is even stronger now and once you throw cars into the mix it'll only get better. I reckon that in around a decade batteries will be many times better than they are today.
Nissan Leaf: 100% Electric vehicle
- Thread starter stinkynuts
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I agree that we may very well see a cost effective battery that will recharge in 10 - 20 minutes. But advances like that are sporadic and unpredictable. I thought we'd have hydrogen fuel cells perfected by now (remember Ballard) but that technology is still awaiting that elusive breakthrougth that may never come. Right now, the hydrogen fuell cells appears to have parked itself well short of what we initially hoped was possible. When products like the latest rechargable batteries show such steady improvement over a relatively short period, we tend to assume that continued advances are inevitable and that the next generation of batteries will soon fulfill our highest expectations. But we don't really know if we're already at the outer limit or not. For every new technology that advances all the way to commercial viability and a few steps beyond, there is another that started off well but stumbled on a technical limitation we never solved.There was a couple of organizations said they would have designated electric vehicle parking spots with outlets once electric cars are on the market. Wal-mart was one I can't remember the other. As for charging times, I know there are batteries out there that can charge to 80% capacity in 10 minutes. As you would expect they are expensive to the point of not being practical. But the technology exists. It's only a matter of time before prices come down to make them viable. Look how laptops and cell phones have advanced batteries in the last decade. That demand for better technology is even stronger now and once you throw cars into the mix it'll only get better. I reckon that in around a decade batteries will be many times better than they are today.
That's the really interesting thing about new technology. You never know where it will take you. I'm betting that we'll see electric cars advance in the next decade or so but we'll probably see at least as much progress with fossil fuel and fossil fuel hybrid vehicles. We already have lots of unused automotive technology that we could use if we found ways to mass produce it and get the costs down. That would happen sooner if fuel costs increased and it seems more likely to happen because the technology already exists and only requires a way to apply it.
Even if we were to assume that battery technology has reached it limits, the reality is that it's good enough for most people most of the time. It's kind of like how some people get by with a TTC pass but once in a while they rent a car when they need to. Electric motors are very efficient, very simple and are very low maintenance. A lot of people right now have a sort of phobia against electric vehicles. Once people start to see how convenient it is not to have to visit the gas station, how inexpensive and limited the maintenance is, how clean the car is under the hood, how quiet the car is, how cleaner the air would be a traffic jam if most people were driving electric and the other advantages they will start to warm up to it. There's certainly negatives but once people get over the initial fear they will see that for the most part it's just better. It's like each time there is a new version of windows, I always hate it initially but after a couple of weeks I couldn't go back. Fossil fuels for personal transportation is coming to an end. That's not something we can stop even with extreme advances in technology. An alternative is going to happen no matter how much people may love their muscle cars (which BTW can't touch an electric car for aceleration!). Personally I think hydrogen is either never going to happen or is decades away so battery electrics are at the very least the short term future for automobiles.
But how many of them are where you are allowed to use them. I doubt many workplaces would allow workers to just hook in to their plugs to recharge their cars.2. Really? What part of the world do you live in with no electricity? The infrastructure is immense. There's plugs absolutely everywhere.
At least until they get their electricity bill....Even if we were to assume that battery technology has reached it limits, the reality is that it's good enough for most people most of the time. It's kind of like how some people get by with a TTC pass but once in a while they rent a car when they need to. Electric motors are very efficient, very simple and are very low maintenance. A lot of people right now have a sort of phobia against electric vehicles. Once people start to see how convenient it is not to have to visit the gas station, how inexpensive and limited the maintenance is, how clean the car is under the hood, how quiet the car is, how cleaner the air would be a traffic jam if most people were driving electric and the other advantages they will start to warm up to it. There's certainly negatives but once people get over the initial fear they will see that for the most part it's just better. It's like each time there is a new version of windows, I always hate it initially but after a couple of weeks I couldn't go back. Fossil fuels for personal transportation is coming to an end. That's not something we can stop even with extreme advances in technology. An alternative is going to happen no matter how much people may love their muscle cars (which BTW can't touch an electric car for aceleration!). Personally I think hydrogen is either never going to happen or is decades away so battery electrics are at the very least the short term future for automobiles.
I could see coin operate or metered and have it taken off your bill at work. I hate the coin operated air pumps at most gas stations but if I must I must.But how many of them are where you are allowed to use them. I doubt many workplaces would allow workers to just hook in to their plugs to recharge their cars.
I've not been to Alberta buy from what I understand many companies there supply plugs for block heaters. Why not for electric cars? Like many other things it could be a perk of the job. They might even get some sort of credit from the govt. for promoting green transport.But how many of them are where you are allowed to use them. I doubt many workplaces would allow workers to just hook in to their plugs to recharge their cars.
So you have to pay for electricity. I doubt there are many that get their gasoline for free. It's still much cheaper. It will be cheaper still once time of day bill take effect province wide and you charge overnight.At least until they get their electricity bill....
Plus if you are so inclined, you can generate your own "fuel" if you want. You can't drill and refine your own oil.
Well..Even if we were to assume that battery technology has reached it limits, the reality is that it's good enough for most people most of the time. It's kind of like how some people get by with a TTC pass but once in a while they rent a car when they need to. Electric motors are very efficient, very simple and are very low maintenance. A lot of people right now have a sort of phobia against electric vehicles. Once people start to see how convenient it is not to have to visit the gas station, how inexpensive and limited the maintenance is, how clean the car is under the hood, how quiet the car is, how cleaner the air would be a traffic jam if most people were driving electric and the other advantages they will start to warm up to it. There's certainly negatives but once people get over the initial fear they will see that for the most part it's just better. It's like each time there is a new version of windows, I always hate it initially but after a couple of weeks I couldn't go back. Fossil fuels for personal transportation is coming to an end. That's not something we can stop even with extreme advances in technology. An alternative is going to happen no matter how much people may love their muscle cars (which BTW can't touch an electric car for aceleration!). Personally I think hydrogen is either never going to happen or is decades away so battery electrics are at the very least the short term future for automobiles.
1) I dont see whats so convenient about having to charge your car over night so that you can use its very limited range the next day only run out of power away from home. Even if they make batteries that charge in 20-30 minutes...that aint convenient at all
2) I dont buy that most people would be ok with its limited range. What is it..like 100km on a full charge? Thats not enough.
3) Even for the people who love their muscle cars....you're right an alternative will be offered.....and even the muscle car lovers will be happy. Thats the beauty of Capitalism....where theres a dollar theres a way. They will get there but unfortunately they are not there yet...thats ok though...I can wait
the electric car can work...the tech is there but its expensive so really...its not there..well not yet anyways.
the phobia goes back to nobody wanting to pay 30-40 Gs only to get fleeced...because we all know what happens with the initial models of "new technology".....the market is skimmed - its expensive, not well thought through and is more often than not a garbage product in general; market skimming allows for this. Anyone who jumps on this band wagon now would be foolish.
I certainly wont be plunking down my hard earned money until this whole thing has worked itself out and competition is niiice and healthy
1. I don't agree. I think the idea of pulling into my garage and plugging into an outlet way more convenient than goin gto a gas station. I have no issue charging my phone that way. I can't imagine having to drive to the "cell charging station" each time that was low.Well..
1) I dont see whats so convenient about having to charge your car over night so that you can use its very limited range the next day only run out of power away from home. Even if they make batteries that charge in 20-30 minutes...that aint convenient at all
2) I dont buy that most people would be ok with its limited range. What is it..like 100km on a full charge? Thats not enough.
3) Even for the people who love their muscle cars....you're right an alternative will be offered.....and even the muscle car lovers will be happy. Thats the beauty of Capitalism....where theres a dollar theres a way. They will get there but unfortunately they are not there yet...thats ok though...I can wait
the electric car can work...the tech is there but its expensive so really...its not there..well not yet anyways.
the phobia goes back to nobody wanting to pay 30-40 Gs only to get fleeced...because we all know what happens with the initial models of "new technology".....the market is skimmed - its expensive, not well thought through and is more often than not a garbage product in general; market skimming allows for this. Anyone who jumps on this band wagon now would be foolish.
I certainly wont be plunking down my hard earned money until this whole thing has worked itself out and competition is niiice and healthy
2. You're right, most people arn't OK with it.. It's called range anxiety. But as I previously said it's something that most people will be OK with on their daily drive. Sort of like some people think they need a massive house when in reality they will only use a small portion of it day to day. As I also stated earlier, there are cars with much greater ranges and the volt is unlimited.
3. Depends what you mean by they are not there yet. Yes, there's not much selection. But is the technology there? Absolutely. Did you know that the electric motor is essentially the same as it was 100 years ago? It's so damn good there's little room for improvement.
I agree the cars are on the expensive side now and it's a bit of premium. But this is hardly "new technology". Yes there's elements of new technology to it but the main component is tried and true. In this case it's very well thought through and certainly not a garbage product. I've seen lots of cars people made by enthusiasts that are amazing. With the financial clout of a major car manfacturer working with a very simple technology (the motor, I know the software is more complex) you'll see amazing cars very quickly. I've read that the life expectancy of an electric motor would be well in excess of 1,000,000km. The motor will outlast the body. If you want to wait and see, nothing wrong with that.. wise in fact. I just don't like to see the people spreading the false and/or misleading propaganda that's been said about electric vehicles for so long.
Well to each their own on that one.... I wonder if you'd be whistling a different tune on the odd day that it slips your mind to plug in over night and your left with a dead car on the day you need it the most.... I pass on that and I'm think many share my sentiments.1. I don't agree. I think the idea of pulling into my garage and plugging into an outlet way more convenient than goin gto a gas station. I have no issue charging my phone that way. I can't imagine having to drive to the "cell charging station" each time that was low.
Well it depends where you are going and what you do...not everyone drives 40 mintutes to the go station and back.... Many people work in Mississauga and live in Scarborough (or even Durham....have the seen the traffic coming out of Durham in the mornings?)....many peoples career depends on driving to a certain degree (mine does). Sorry but a range like that just isnt acceptable when it comes to marketing a product to people with the hopes of selling enough units to turn a profit. They cant make the mistake GM made for years by trying to tell the market what they want.2. You're right, most people arn't OK with it.. It's called range anxiety. But as I previously said it's something that most people will be OK with on their daily drive. Sort of like some people think they need a massive house when in reality they will only use a small portion of it day to day. As I also stated earlier, there are cars with much greater ranges and the volt is unlimited.
What I mean is...If you cant make it cost effectively so that the general populous can afford it....its not there yet. Sure the technology has been around for a long time...but if you don't have the knowledge or ability to effectively make money off of this because it costs too much...I would say you have a bit more to learn about how to make it better and cheaper....hence a ways to go.3. Depends what you mean by they are not there yet. Yes, there's not much selection. But is the technology there? Absolutely. Did you know that the electric motor is essentially the same as it was 100 years ago? It's so damn good there's little room for improvement.
If you include hybrid gas & hybrid diesel, I can accept that the vast majority of passenger vehicles will be powered by electric motors in the forseeable future. We've got that already with cars like the Prius. But these still have auxilliary fossil fuel power to support the batteries and extend the range etc.Even if we were to assume that battery technology has reached it limits, the reality is that it's good enough for most people most of the time. It's kind of like how some people get by with a TTC pass but once in a while they rent a car when they need to. Electric motors are very efficient, very simple and are very low maintenance. A lot of people right now have a sort of phobia against electric vehicles. Once people start to see how convenient it is not to have to visit the gas station, how inexpensive and limited the maintenance is, how clean the car is under the hood, how quiet the car is, how cleaner the air would be a traffic jam if most people were driving electric and the other advantages they will start to warm up to it. There's certainly negatives but once people get over the initial fear they will see that for the most part it's just better. It's like each time there is a new version of windows, I always hate it initially but after a couple of weeks I couldn't go back. Fossil fuels for personal transportation is coming to an end. That's not something we can stop even with extreme advances in technology. An alternative is going to happen no matter how much people may love their muscle cars (which BTW can't touch an electric car for aceleration!). Personally I think hydrogen is either never going to happen or is decades away so battery electrics are at the very least the short term future for automobiles.
When I said that we may have already reached the outer limits of rechargeable battery technology, I was thinking about all-electric cars that require external recharging facilities. There are any number of reasons why plug-in technology may not predominate as we move forward. I appreciate that the electric motor is vastly more efficient than the reciprocating gas or diesel engine, but the infrastructure and technology to quickly and conveniently recharge plug-in vehicles may never happen. I can see plug-ins getting a foothold as a daily commuter for people who can park close to their homes. The technology is already acceptable for that segment so plug-ins could someday account account for maybe 20% of the personal vehicle market. But we are not yet at the point where plug-ins are destined to replace hybrids with their auxilliary fossil fuel engines. We need a few technical advances and a fairly radical transformation of the corner gas station before that happens. There are all kinds of places where you can drive over 150 miles without seeing a single gas station and that's after more than a century of fossil fuel dominance. It will take a very long time for that single gas station in the middle of nowhere to start topping up plug-ins. It could easily never happen.
I'm sure it will only happen once and you'd learn from it. I don't think that people will not buy a car because they might forget to plug it in. I'm sure people forget once in a while to pay their bills, it doesn't mean they will go without stuff/services because remembering to pay the bill is too much of a brain taxer to risk it. It's also like saying I'm too stupid to own this product and it's a really lousy argument against electric vehicles. I also stated at least once in this thread that I wouldn't personally consider a leaf, I'd only consider a volt (or similar) which I can use all the time without having to worry too much about how far I can go on a charge.Well to each their own on that one.... I wonder if you'd be whistling a different tune on the odd day that it slips your mind to plug in over night and your left with a dead car on the day you need it the most.... I pass on that and I'm think many share my sentiments.
Like I said, stats show that 80% of Americans (I don't have Canadian stats) would be able to use a car like this for their daily needs. Obviously it doesn't satify everyone. Like you said, it wouldn't work for you (it wouldn't work for me either). That doesn't make it a bad product and doesn't make it unusable for a large chunk of the population. I'll repeat it, I wouldn't consider a leaf but I would get a volt without hesitation. I'm not sure what you mean by your GM comment but just about every car manufacturer now is developing electric vehicles because it's obvious to them that the demand for change is here and it's going to be the car of the future (that's practically certain, what we're essentially debating is the source of the electricity). Even honda a couple of years ago said they would never make an electric car have done a 180 and began development.Well it depends where you are going and what you do...not everyone drives 40 mintutes to the go station and back.... Many people work in Mississauga and live in Scarborough (or even Durham....have the seen the traffic coming out of Durham in the mornings?)....many peoples career depends on driving to a certain degree (mine does). Sorry but a range like that just isnt acceptable when it comes to marketing a product to people with the hopes of selling enough units to turn a profit. They cant make the mistake GM made for years by trying to tell the market what they want.
I dunno.. the volt is a little bit pricey but it's not obscene. With leasing it's affordable to many people. This is the first generation. When they were new PCs were expensive, as were LCD TVs, DVD players and all sort of other things. In 5 years electric cars will be pretty close in price to regular gasoline cars.What I mean is...If you cant make it cost effectively so that the general populous can afford it....its not there yet. Sure the technology has been around for a long time...but if you don't have the knowledge or ability to effectively make money off of this because it costs too much...I would say you have a bit more to learn about how to make it better and cheaper....hence a ways to go.
Only time will tell slowpoke. I'd like to stress the point that the hybrid is NOT an electric car. It's a gasoline car with a little bit of electric assist. A volt is an electric car with an onboard generator. It's a significant difference that a lot of people don't appreciate. I believe that the introduction of the electric car on a mass scale will follow the lead of the volt and be plug in cars with generators. People are still too paranoid about the range so pure electric cars like the leaf will have a hard time in the beginning. However it's not uncommon for families to have multiple cars. Once people have experience first generation cars like the volt and see that for a "work" car an electric only vehicle will work for many of them they will be less afraid of a pure EV.If you include hybrid gas & hybrid diesel, I can accept that the vast majority of passenger vehicles will be powered by electric motors in the forseeable future. We've got that already with cars like the Prius. But these still have auxilliary fossil fuel power to support the batteries and extend the range etc.
When I said that we may have already reached the outer limits of rechargeable battery technology, I was thinking about all-electric cars that require external recharging facilities. There are any number of reasons why plug-in technology may not predominate as we move forward. I appreciate that the electric motor is vastly more efficient than the reciprocating gas or diesel engine, but the infrastructure and technology to quickly and conveniently recharge plug-in vehicles may never happen. I can see plug-ins getting a foothold as a daily commuter for people who can park close to their homes. The technology is already acceptable for that segment so plug-ins could someday account account for maybe 20% of the personal vehicle market. But we are not yet at the point where plug-ins are destined to replace hybrids with their auxilliary fossil fuel engines. We need a few technical advances and a fairly radical transformation of the corner gas station before that happens. There are all kinds of places where you can drive over 150 miles without seeing a single gas station and that's after more than a century of fossil fuel dominance. It will take a very long time for that single gas station in the middle of nowhere to start topping up plug-ins. It could easily never happen.
The bottom line is that the hybrid, mild hybrid, plug-in hybrid and the Volt electric drive system with gasoline powered generator depend to a certain extent on fossil fuel to overcome the technical limitations of the pure plug-in battery. I have no doubt that we'll continue to see more and more electric cars with auxilliary gas powered engines / generators. I appreciate that the Volt can operate as a daily commuter over limited distances without ever needing the gas generator. You plug it in every night and you can get to work and back on the battery power alone. But if you can't park near your house or if you take a long trip in the wilderness, you can still use it because it will also run with the gas engine running the generator which powers the electric motor AND recharges the batteries. The 2012 plug in Prius does more or less the same thing but neither of those cars would sell in any serious quantities if they didn't have reciprocating engines with gas tanks as backup. Until we get technological breakthroughs on battery life and/or ultra fast battery charging, we will continue to see fossil fuel as part of the equation. We're both saying essentially the same thing - ie: very few people will buy pure plug-ins until we get next generation technology and a way to quickly recharge them wherever we go.Only time will tell slowpoke. I'd like to stress the point that the hybrid is NOT an electric car. It's a gasoline car with a little bit of electric assist. A volt is an electric car with an onboard generator. It's a significant difference that a lot of people don't appreciate. I believe that the introduction of the electric car on a mass scale will follow the lead of the volt and be plug in cars with generators. People are still too paranoid about the range so pure electric cars like the leaf will have a hard time in the beginning. However it's not uncommon for families to have multiple cars. Once people have experience first generation cars like the volt and see that for a "work" car an electric only vehicle will work for many of them they will be less afraid of a pure EV.
Essentially, but I only partially agree. I think that a change of mindset is more important than massive leaps in technology. I feel that the first generation of volt and similar cars will help people see that their fear of pure EVs are exagerated. I'm just happy that I can finally own an electric car!We're both saying essentially the same thing - ie: very few people will buy pure plug-ins until we get next generation technology and a way to quickly recharge them wherever we go.
Those who buy Volts and other plug-in electic cars will indeed learn to trust in their all-electric capabilities. If you've driven to work and back for 5 days each week with no gas consumption and maybe travelled similar distances on the weekend without the gas generator kicking in, you'd soon understand that the plug-in does MOST of what you want in a car without any using gas at all. You'd also love the economy and low maintenance since the gas generator almost never gets used. I have never driven an electric car but I don't fear them. I just know I couldn't live with one if it didn't have the gas back up. We park on the street and need to travel on long trips occasionally so it would never get plugged in and the gas auxilliary would be the only thing that ever charged the battery. If it was still more economical under those conditions, I'd consider buying one but it would also need to perform and handle as well as my 2009 Honda Fit 5 speed which is a joy to drive and very economical.Essentially, but I only partially agree. I think that a change of mindset is more important than massive leaps in technology. I feel that the first generation of volt and similar cars will help people see that their fear of pure EVs are exagerated. I'm just happy that I can finally own an electric car!
