NYPD chokehold case
- Thread starter Smallcock
- Start date
Well for one, you're in Canada. If you were in US...you could've been 6ft under...
Very nice. Now, the contention is that 10 seconds of a chokehold was enough to trigger a heart attack. Are you telling me that, with a subject in a condition where a 15 second chokehold (going to give you a little more time) is enough to trigger a heart attack, a kimura wouldn't do the same? A kick to the knee wouldn't? That ANY of those techniques wouldn't trigger a stress heart attack?
I mean, you're the one playing the 20/20 hindsight game, so let's play it. Are you ready to say that none of those would have also resulted in a heart attack in a man who got one from a 10 second chokehold?
I mean, really, a 10 second chokehold triggered a HEART ATTACK in Garner. Not breathing for 10 seconds caused this guy to have a heart attack! So you're saying in his condition, the stress of a kimura wouldn't stop his ticker?
since most of those others moves don't involve stopping breathing I would say yes most of those wont cause a heart attack..... subduing via pain is very different from subduing bt preventing breathing
the cops escalated the situation..... call for back up and reason with the person..... nothing suggests there was need for a take down
as for resisting..... how many of you go ragdoll when someone is trying to hurt you...... even if you don't want to fight you natural instinct is to react
It's less medically likely, but that's beside the point. Let's put it this way, do you feel that the officer would have been justified in pulling his gun in such a situation? A chokehold is considered the same level of force; lethal.
I don't know about you, but assuming I'm in that situation I put my hands behind my back and let the cop put the cuffs on me. I don't "ragdoll" and flop to the ground and I don't start flailing my arms around.
Keeping someone from breathing for 10 seconds is considered lethal force?
I use lethal force on myself every time I get the hiccups?
A chokehold is considered lethal force. When you use it to keep someone breathing until they're dead. Garnder was kept from breathing for about 10 seconds during the arrest, went down, and then had a heart attack in the patrol car.
When you're that damn out of shape that keeping from breathing for 10 seconds will trigger a heart attack, I submit that the pain for any debilitating hold could cause a heart attack. Again, TEN seconds. TEN. It's taking me longer to write this sentence, "It's taking me longer to write this sentence."
Yes, a chokehold can be very, very dangerous, even to a healthy person. If you apply it for long enough. 10 seconds of a chokehold is only dangerous if you're about to drop dead from the pain and stress of stubbing your toe. TEN seconds.
No way the cop should get off scot free!
But yeah, when a bunch of cops say you are under arrest just let them arrest you. Has anyone ever resisted and the cops said "okay, you're right we'll just walk away now..." and it's worked out for them????
arguing about a chokehold is missing the point that a cop should descalate a situation especially when we are talking about loose cigs for sale
I doubt the chokehold caused the heart attack, more probably from compression of his chest when he was on the ground with the cops on top of him. That and the underlying medical conditions, chance are had he been in better shape/health he would have been okay like most people who go through that.
With respect to death of your close friend Eric, of course not. But that's a silly, emotional straw man argument that's been made time and time again and serves no purpose other than to short circuit logical discussion of the topic at hand.
Nobody wanted your friend Eric dead. His death was a tragic result of his decisions, however. His death was the tragic result of repeated bad decisions on his part. He chose to commit a crime. A small, relatively harmless crime, but a crime. He chose not to pay the citations for that crime. The was arrested for that crime, and several others. He did not learn from that experience. He continued to commit the same crime. He continued to not pay the fines for that crime. His continued lack of payment on fines for a petty crime resulted in an arrest warrant. He chose not to submit to the arrest. He fought back during the arrest. He was in terrible physical condition, should have submitted to the arrest peacefully (especially after a previous charge of resisting arrest), but chose not to do so.
He made mistake after mistake after bad choice after bad choice. And tragically died because of that chain of events. And I'm not even including the choice to be in bad shape while living a life of (very petty) crime.
It isn't about selling cigarettes. It's about resisting arrest. That's the common theme in each of these cases. Give me an example where the cops killed someone who was cooperating with them, and we've got a serious problem. Give me a case where the cops had a realistic option of lesser force and purposely chose greater force, and I'm all for putting that cop behind bars. Cops torturing suspects with toilet plungers? Throw 'em in prison and lose the damn keys. But that's not what we have here, is it? It's a guy who chose to resist arrest and died as a result of the cop choking him for 10 seconds?
I mean, none of you has had a girl choke you for a heck of a lot longer than that? Don't do it with someone you don't know and trust, but 10 seconds of choking is a joke. Unless you're in that bad of shape, I guess.
Yes a ten second choke hold improperly applied can result in death. Eric Garner was a physical wreck, his heart was probably clogged with cholesterol and fat lipids. When he couldn't breathe he probably had a panic attack which brought on cardiac arrest. A slam dunk case for any prosecutor.
And again, the choke hold used was to kill not to make him submit.
And again, the choke hold used was to kill not to make him submit.
Your blabbering aside... he was a PETTY CRIMINAL. Does THAT make him deserving of death?
Also, to refute your blind insistence... he was NOT UNDER ARREST. Police officers cannot just walk up to you and try to grab your wrists. Did you watch a different video than everyone else did? Do you have a link to a video where the police AT ANY TIME uttered the words "you are under arrest"??
Yeah... didn't think so.
Yes, but this was not some rogue officer or group of officers. The de Blasio Administration said to the NYPD we want you to enforce this.
The ban on chokeholds doesn't state that an officer can perform a chokehold but only for less than 10 seconds. The reason why it doesn't say that is because it's understood that a chokehold for any length of time whether 1 second or 10 seconds can cause serious harm. A chokehold has the potential to break a persons neck and kill them in less than ten seconds.
Eric's suspected infraction leading up to the de facto arrest is significant. His suspected petty nonviolent crime isn't worth the ink used to report it. The officers were obligated to state the charge against him, and tell him clearly that he was being placed under arrest. Hands flailing, the cops were obligated to attempt to de-escalate the situation. Cops are trained tax paid professionals with a job to serve and protect the public.
The cops failed on all counts.
Eric's suspected infraction leading up to the de facto arrest is significant. His suspected petty nonviolent crime isn't worth the ink used to report it. The officers were obligated to state the charge against him, and tell him clearly that he was being placed under arrest. Hands flailing, the cops were obligated to attempt to de-escalate the situation. Cops are trained tax paid professionals with a job to serve and protect the public.
The cops failed on all counts.
Healthy people have died while on the ground with cops putting their full body weight on them causing them to suffocate.
The actions of these cops is something we've seen many times before.
Now you're getting it.
What you do in the privacy of your own home is your own business. But any use of force training that actually allows chokeholds, classifies them as lethal force.
Period, so a cop better be fearing the life of another before they decide to utilize it and they better be prepared to justify it, much in the same way they can't just pull a gun for no good reason.
