Steeles Royal

Remembering 9/11

basketcase

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To clarify, various US intelligence agencies knew pieces of the plot but were not able to put it together in time. Various assessments (like the guy in on PBS) did hint at the possibility but they were either seen as unlikely since each specific agency was missing part of the picture.

The guy on PBS claiming that he told them but they ignored him based on his abrasive personality seems a stretch.
 

Sexy_Dave

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To clarify, various US intelligence agencies knew pieces of the plot but were not able to put it together in time. Various assessments (like the guy in on PBS) did hint at the possibility but they were either seen as unlikely since each specific agency was missing part of the picture.

The guy on PBS claiming that he told them but they ignored him based on his abrasive personality seems a stretch.
Wut?

O'Niell was killed when the towers fell. He was chief of security there having been hired for the job the month before. So he isn't claiming anything.
 

dirkd101

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We aren't the only ones questioning the events of that fateful day. I've had numerous conversations with all people from all walks of life, Canadians and Americans alike and the consensus is almost half the people I have talked to about this believe it was a government job. I think even the 911 victims have questioned what really happened.

Didn't the owner of building 7, Silverstein, (who I believe is connected with the Rockefellers) buy the building the summer of 2001, and had his insurance policy up'd and changed that if the building was by chance a victim of terrorism, the building would be covered for that as well - just 2 months before the building came down!!. Silverstein was given 7 billion dollars from insurance. You would have to be remedial to not connect those dots, You don't have to be a rocket scientist to start thinking maybe, just maybe there is something fishy going on here.

The truth always comes out. If there was a plot to bring down those towers by anyone other than actual terrorists, one day when nobody's has anything to lose, it will come out.

Buildings are bought and sold all the time and a WTC address is nice to own.

As far as putting a rider on the insurance policy, with respect to terrorist activities. Nothing to hold onto as far as theories go, as the WTC was victim of a car bombing many years before. So I call this a prudent rider when owning such real estate.

Simple metallurgy will tell you that steel doesn't have to be at its melting point before it fails. It just needs to be heated enough for it to become softer and when this happens, the forces that they were designed to hold under normal circumstances are enough to make it fail.
 
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italianguy74

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In which was do Newton and Einsteins work prove that the buildings didn't collapse because of the planes and resulting fires?

(this should be good :popcorn:)
if I were to smash the top or even the center of a candle with a hammer and light the wick it still wont collapse on its self, it would still melt from the top down.
Newton and Einstein would view the collapse and have questions just as I do. If building 1 and 2 collapsed one floor at a time, which would be the most logical explanation...it wouldn't take only 7 or 8 seconds.
 

Insidious Von

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I'll give you a very simple experiment. Take a small beam of structural steel and lay it over a camp fire. Even though a camp fire is much cooler than burning jet fuel, you will see the metal sag significantly just under its own weight.
Agreed, somewhat.

Low carbon steel is very malleable. It will change shape when heat treated, however it has a high tensile strength and wont break. Low carbon steel is useless for items such as knives or razor blades, it cannot keep an edge. But it is excellent for building towers.
 

Promo

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Name one other building in the world that was built with the same external frame design. Just one. Anywhere. Ever.
WTC construction was based on the framed tube structure and including it's variants its a fairy common structure for buildings above 40 stories.

These buildings are built exactly the same way:
Chicago DeWitt-Chestnut apartment building (43 floors)
Chicago Aon Center (83 floors)

100s of buildings were built using variants of the frame tube, most different bracing methodologies for the outside structure (frame), but all used the same cantilever floor structure without columns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_(structure)
 

Promo

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I'm believe the collapse of the WTCs has been satisfactorily explained and therefore I'm not a believer of many of the conspiracy theories.

However, what happened to the aircraft flight recorders? I accept they might have been damaged, but why was no physical trace ever found (or at least told to the public). They found 100s of bone fragments as small as fingernail size, but nothing from the flight recorders in any of the 3 buildings (WTC and Pentagon).
 

james t kirk

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Anyone who believes that the WTC towers were brought down by demolition needs to have their head examined.

1. You would need teams of workers working for months with construction tools to prepare the building for demolition.

2. Said teams would need access to all the structural engineering drawings and would need structural engineers on the team of the highest order to plan the demolition.

3. Each and every member of the team would need to be sociopaths cable of mass murder of innocent people.

4. Said teams are not going to get access to the buildings to cut holes in walls, remove insulation, fireproofing without being noticed. People working in the offices are going to notice.

5. Someone has to sell you the explosives and materials which would fill tens of full size tractor trailers.

6. Someone has to be behind it all. George Bush would never ever ever authorize such a thing and to suggest that he would is stupidity. (Though I could almost believe a piece of work like Larry Silverstein might try it.)

7. Someone involved in the process would talk. You would have hundreds of people involved in the entire process and it is IMPOSSIBLE for someone, one person, not to talk. The US Navy Seals are probably THEE most efficient and disciplined tactical force in the world. A couple days after Osama Bin Ladden was taken out, even they were a bunch of blabber mouths. Please don't tell me that one guy on the supposed demolition team would not speak up out of guilt.
 

james t kirk

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Here's a video of Leslie Robertson, P.E.

Mr. Robertson was THEE structural engineer who designed the WTC.

When Mr. Robertson stands up and says it was controlled demolition that brought down the WTC, (and if anyone would want it to be true, it would be him) I will believe it. Until then, a bunch of crazy sociopath Islamo Fascists hijacked 4 planes that were fully laden with Jet Fuel and flew them at high speed into the WTC. The resulting structural damage combined with the heat from the fire weakened the remaining columns and floor system and the buildings collapsed under their own weight.


Around 2:45 you can see him get emotional thinking about how the building he designed collapsed. He even second guess himself. Never in a million years would I blame him for what happened. Never. But you can see by the pain on his face that he does in fact (at some level) blame himself.
 

fuji

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if I were to smash the top or even the center of a candle with a hammer and light the wick it still wont collapse on its self, it would still melt from the top down.
Newton and Einstein would view the collapse and have questions just as I do. If building 1 and 2 collapsed one floor at a time, which would be the most logical explanation...it wouldn't take only 7 or 8 seconds.
This is ridiculous nonsense. You are comparing the WTC to a candle? That is the dumbest thing yet on this thread
 
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basketcase

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Agreed, somewhat.

Low carbon steel is very malleable. It will change shape when heat treated, however it has a high tensile strength ....
Until it is heated. As temperature increases it experiences a significant loss of tensile strength. Last time the tin foil crowd were on this I even posted a study specifically on the properties of structural steel under heat. I can find it again if you wish.
 

basketcase

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if I were to smash the top or even the center of a candle with a hammer and light the wick it still wont collapse on its self, it would still melt from the top down.
Newton and Einstein would view the collapse and have questions just as I do. If building 1 and 2 collapsed one floor at a time, which would be the most logical explanation...it wouldn't take only 7 or 8 seconds.
If the TWC towers were built of solid candle wax and hit by a hammer your analogy would make sense. You might not realize that they weren't.
 

onthebottom

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Sometimes I forget how many assholes there are in any given population - this is a depressing reminder. I lost several neighbors and work friends that day.

May I say to all you Truthers - Fuck You.
 

SuperCharge

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Sometimes I forget how many assholes there are in any given population - this is a depressing reminder. I lost several neighbors and work friends that day.

May I say to all you Truthers - Fuck You.
Sorry about your loss bro, if it's any consolation I lost a friend as well. Perhaps it's easier for us truth ers to continue to search for answers because it's hard to accept.
 

eznutz

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Have you ever looked at the actual credentials of the 'architects and engineers'? Have you ever inquired how many of them have ever had anything to do with building high rises (let alone one designed like the twin towers) or actually examined all of the evidence?

Also, do you know how many architects and engineers there are in the US? We are talking 2,500 out of well over 2 million. But sure, go with the opinions of one tenth of a percent of the field.
 

fuji

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Sorry about your loss bro, if it's any consolation I lost a friend as well. Perhaps it's easier for us truth ers to continue to search for answers because it's hard to accept.
As this thread has clearly demonstrated, like all the other threads, the truther nonsense is bullshit from clueless and/or dishonest people who don't have any real understanding of what they are talking about.

On this thread we've heard that the WTC is like a candle, and that nothing fell on the other building, and that a plane hitting a building is just like hitting a steel beam with a hammer, and that a building that is crushing as it's falling should fall at exactly the speed of gravity, and on other threads we've heard every manner of nonsense.

It's fucking stupid.
 

basketcase

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Is posting youtube videos what passes for reasoned debate now?

But no, your video does not address the significant loss of tensile strength steel experiences when heated and the loss of much of the load carrying outer structure.
 

eznutz

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Is posting youtube videos what passes for reasoned debate now?

But no, your video does not address the significant loss of tensile strength steel experiences when heated and the loss of much of the load carrying outer structure.
The paper below destroys the PCF (Progressive Column Failure) paper that was promoted by NIST as the only explanation for total collapse in under 15 seconds

Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis
(International Journal of Protective Structures – Volume 4 · Number 2 · 2013)
http://aneta.org/911experiments_com...StructuresWTC7SzuladzinskiSza mbotiJohns.pdf

ABSTRACT: This article elaborates on variables associated with the collapse of the North Tower of the World Trade Center. The previously published quantifications of inertia, column capacity, and the assumptions related to the beginning of downward motion, are examined and corrected. The reasons for false conclusions reached in several previous analyses are presented.
....
SUMMARY: A number of simple, transparent calculations of the North Tower collapse were presented in [5] and the conclusion was that assuming even a modest resistance of columns during their destruction would cause an unacceptably long collapse time. It is only when perfectly frangible columns were adopted that the fall time was as low as 15.3 s. This removes the PCF mode, as defined here, as a viable hypothesis of collapse. Yet, the PCF achieved significant popularity, as based on [1] and [2], while the next work [12] did not contribute anything new to the core of the subject. These papers, purporting to explain the collapse, suffered from three fatal errors, as detailed above. Also, the whole methodology was not justified. Some incredibly short fall times were quoted by the authors, while all solutions were of a black-box type. The presentations in these papers are not a valid description of what happened. The reasons for a smooth motion history and promptness of collapse of the North Tower remain yet to be determined.
Here are the papers mentioned above that NIST relied on for there own paper

[1] Bazˇant, Z.P. and Zhou, Y, “Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse?—Simple Analysis”. Journal of Engineering Mechanics, Vol.128, No.1, pp.2–6, January 2002
[2] Bazˇant, Z.P. and Verdure, M., “Mechanics of Progressive Collapse: Learning from World Trade Center and Building Demolitions”. Journal of Engineering Mechanics, Vol.133, No.3, pp.308–319, March 2007.
[12] Bazant, Z.P., Le, J.-L., Greening, F.R., and Benson, D.B. (2008). “What did and did not cause collapse of World Trade Center twin towers in New York?”. J. of Engrg. Mechanics ASCE 134 (10) 892–906.


And here is the letter to NIST that was sent by a manager for Underwriters Laboratories (who lost his job for writing the letter) disputing NIST's assumption about the "tensile strength" of the steel.
http://www.911truth.org/ul-executive-speaks-out-on-wtc-study/
From: Kevin R Ryan/SBN/ULI

To: frank.gayle@nist.gov

Date: 11/11/2004



Dr. Gayle,

Having recently reviewed your team’s report of 10/19/04, I felt the need to contact you directly.

As I’m sure you know, the company I work for certified the steel components used in the construction of the WTC buildings. In requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing – that the samples we certified met all requirements. They suggested we all be patient and understand that UL was working with your team, and that tests would continue through this year. I’m aware of UL’s attempts to help, including performing tests on models of the floor assemblies. But the results of these tests appear to indicate that the buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel.

There continues to be a number of “experts” making public claims about how the WTC buildings fell. One such person, Dr. Hyman Brown from the WTC construction crew, claims that the buildings collapsed due to fires at 2000F melting the steel (1). He states “What caused the building to collapse is the airplane fuel . . . burning at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The steel in that five-floor area melts.” Additionally, the newspaper that quotes him says “Just-released preliminary findings from a National Institute of Standards and Technology study of the World Trade Center collapse support Brown’s theory.”

We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2). Why Dr. Brown would imply that 2000F would melt the high-grade steel used in those buildings makes no sense at all.

The results of your recently published metallurgical tests seem to clear things up (3), and support your team’s August 2003 update as detailed by the Associated Press (4), in which you were ready to “rule out weak steel as a contributing factor in the collapse”. The evaluation of paint deformation and spheroidization seem very straightforward, and you noted that the samples available were adequate for the investigation. Your comments suggest that the steel was probably exposed to temperatures of only about 500F (250C), which is what one might expect from a thermodynamic analysis of the situation.

However the summary of the new NIST report seems to ignore your findings, as it suggests that these low temperatures caused exposed bits of the building’s steel core to “soften and buckle”(5). Additionally this summary states that the perimeter columns softened, yet your findings make clear that “most perimeter panels (157 of 160) saw no temperature above 250C”. To soften steel for the purposes of forging, normally temperatures need to be above 1100C (6). However, this new summary report suggests that much lower temperatures were be able to not only soften the steel in a matter of minutes, but lead to rapid structural collapse.

This story just does not add up. If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers. That fact should be of great concern to all Americans. Alternatively, the contention that this steel did fail at temperatures around 250C suggests that the majority of deaths on 9/11 were due to a safety-related failure. That suggestion should be of great concern to my company.

There is no question that the events of 9/11 are the emotional driving force behind the War on Terror. And the issue of the WTC collapse is at the crux of the story of 9/11. My feeling is that your metallurgical tests are at the crux of the crux of the crux. Either you can make sense of what really happened to those buildings, and communicate this quickly, or we all face the same destruction and despair that come from global decisions based on disinformation and “chatter”.

Thanks for your efforts to determine what happened on that day. You may know that there are a number of other current and former government employees that have risked a great deal to help us to know the truth. I’ve copied one of these people on this message as a sign of respect and support. I believe your work could also be a nucleus of fact around which the truth, and thereby global peace and justice, can grow again. Please do what you can to quickly eliminate the confusion regarding the ability of jet fuel fires to soften or melt structural steel.

1. http://www.boulderweekly.com/archive/102104/coverstory.html

2. CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 61st edition, pg D-187

3. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/P3MechanicalandMetAnalysisofSteel.pdf

4. http://www.voicesofsept11.org/archive/911ic/082703.php

5. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NCSTACWTCStatusFINAL101904WEB2.pdf
(pg 11)

6. http://www.forging.org/FIERF/pdf/ffaaMacSleyne.pdf

Kevin Ryan
Site Manager
Environmental Health Laboratories
A Division of Underwriters Laboratories
 

fuji

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Except we know for a fact that the steel was weakened by the fire, so that long cut and paste crank conspiracy junk is, well, junk.

The other thing that article overlooks is that as the building fell it picked up inertia, meaning that the force impacting the building supports grew exponentially as the upper mass fell onto the lower structures. After crashing through one floor it hit the next floor with MUCH more force. After a couple of floors got crushed the falling mass was hitting with astronomically more energy than the supports could withstand, meaning that after a couple of floors collapsed nothing was going to significantly slow the fall.
 

Insidious Von

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Sometimes I forget how many assholes there are in any given population - this is a depressing reminder. I lost several neighbors and work friends that day.

May I say to all you Truthers - Fuck You.
My sincere condolences OTB, I almost know the feeling. My family and I went through days of anxiety waiting to hear that our American relatives were sate.

basketcase I would like to see that properties chart. There is a huge difference between malleability and tensile strength.

 
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