Reverse discimination

[CreamyD's]

I don't want to start a race war but a Dr. that we work with mentioned that he was disturbed recently to find out how many scholarships there are for Black males. And what bothered him is that white males don't qualify. What he thinks is that the black community would freak if there was a scholarship that only White males qualified for. I never thought of this before and it does seem wrong. His other comment were that people are probably afraid to say anything for being accused of being racist. Any thoughts.

Friend of CreamyD's

 

[Fred Zed]

I think without having the full details of the scholarship program [ the fine print] it would be hard to argue reverse discrimination or otherwise.

 

[paul kinkos]

statistics...

all things being equal... a scholarship for blacks only would be wrong... but despite the progress over the last 50 years... things are still not equal.

i am in school... actually fairly recently made the transition from high school to university... and i couldn't help but notice the shift in the demographics... there is a strikingly lower percentage of non-white university students compared to the number of non-white students in high school...

i'm sure the people offering these scholarships are trying to do what they can to help the situation... i still can not argue with the fact that it IS strictly speaking not fair... but it might be necessary.

 

[Philanthropist]

I isn't exactly fair, but I understand where the ideas and premise comes from. "White" kids grow up knowing that the world is open, and there is nothing they can't do. They have never been told that they aren't as good because of colour. (Blame the media, TV and Movies for this) Alot of "Black" youth grow up thinking that they are a product of their environment, that black youth who grow up poor, are destined to be poor. This thinking usually turns out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. These scholarships are meant to show Black youth that they can do these things, that the world wants them do these things and they give a great opportunity to accomplish these things.

Also, there are more than just scholarships for black students. There are many, many for Jews, Women, Asian and the disabled. All of the above whom have been denied in that past because of sex, race or religion.

Trent

 

[gramage]

your only realizing this now? there are things like this throughout society. one thing I would tell your doc friend is that the vast majority of these raced scholarships also have serious financial need as part of them, so they are for poor black youth whose families have been stuck in the ghetto and would otherwise not be able to attend college/university. they have the intent of balancing opportunities within the workforce to bust up the glass ceiling, and in that context I have no problem with them.

 

[xarir]

It's a very fine line between discrimination and trying to help your own kind. In my opinion there's nothing wrong with a Black-only scholarship, just as I have no real issue with a Jewish-only one or a Chinese-only one or ...

In trying to help your own kind, one is promoting financial aid to futher education / societal change for the betterment of an individual and thus the community as a whole. Discrimination on the other hand, leads to a degradation of standards by blocking certain individuals from accomplishing things for the greater good.

Does a Black-only scholarship mean that Whites are blocked from improving their lives through higher education? I would argue that it tends to balance society by broadening access to education to other groups.

 

[Quest4Less]

Reverse Discrimination..

Yes it does exist.... good, bad, or in between. One very bad side effect is that it creates more hatred/intolerance in the people that get denied for the job/scholarship or whatever. If you have two people going for the same thing and the "smarter/better" one gets denied because of the need to fullfill a "quota", then you breed hatred.

What about the ones who "win".... doesn't that teach them that they are not good enough to get anything on their own, that they must depend on "handouts" for everything?

I think as a society we need to stop sugar coating everything. Stop worrying about offending people and just draw a line. If you are good enough you get picked, if not, so sorry......(NOT).

What kind of world are we creating when we "lower the bar" so more people can get over. Shouldn't we be trying to raise everyone's performance to exceed todays limit, in order to make a better tomorrow?

If I'm running a business then I'd hire a blind, one legged, purple, homosexual canibal if I thought they would increase sales.

 

[spartan5782]

Re: Reverse Discrimination..

Yes it does exist.... good, bad, or in between. One very bad side effect is that it creates more hatred/intolerance in the people that get denied for the job/scholarship or whatever. If you have two people going for the same thing and the "smarter/better" one gets denied because of the need to fullfill a "quota", then you breed hatred.

What about the ones who "win".... doesn't that teach them that they are not good enough to get anything on their own, that they must depend on "handouts" for everything?

I think as a society we need to stop sugar coating everything. Stop worrying about offending people and just draw a line. If you are good enough you get picked, if not, so sorry......(NOT).

What kind of world are we creating when we "lower the bar" so more people can get over. Shouldn't we be trying to raise everyone's performance to exceed todays limit, in order to make a better tomorrow?

If I'm running a business then I'd hire a blind, one legged, purple, homosexual canibal if I thought they would increase sales.

I think you may be mis-reading what the "handout" is all about. It's not about lowering the bar or setting quotas, it's about trying to equallize past injustices as much as possible. During times of slavery and the more recent times of discrimination, Blacks were denied the opportunity to equal work and equal pay. So over the years where the children of Whites were able to do better than their parents, thus creating a legacy of success, the same opportunity was not afforded to blacks creating the disparity you see today.

There are only so many scholarships by which we "all" can compete for. Yes, some are "won" by Blacks as well as Whites. Competition is good. But when the dust settles and some very smart kids are left standing...they still want to go and should go to college. Some parents can afford to send their kids..and some can't. There is a disproportionate percent of Blacks that can't afford to send theirs due to the reasons I outlined above. It doesn't mean the bar is being lowered, or the kids aren't worthy, to the contrary, they still have to compete for the scholarship academically. This is an effort to give those "financially challenged" (how's that for sugar coating "poor ass") Black parents a chance to send their smart kids to college along with the Whites who can. And this still doesn't bring it to parity, again, there are only so many scholarships to be handed out, but it gives them another "bite" of the apple of success.

And I'm not saying all Whites are wealthy and all Blacks are poor, just looking at the percent of Blacks to Whites and within that context..the ratio of poverty to comfort is disproportioned.

I do long for the day this conversation isn't had, but when?? I grew up in Detroit in the 50's, 60's and 70's and discrimination was blatant. My parents couldn't afford to send me to college, I did get a scholarship and graduated, and now I'm able to send my son to college (albeit Community College..he isn't as bright as his old man..lol), but seriously...it worked in my case as in others. My son will go 2 years to Community then transfer and complete at Michigan State University. There will be a time when all this evens out...just not today.

Sorry to bore you with my story, just thought it might add to the discussion. Now, let's get back to Hobbying!!

 

[Philanthropist]

Re: Reverse Discrimination..

What about the ones who "win".... doesn't that teach them that they are not good enough to get anything on their own, that they must depend on "handouts" for everything?

I think as a society we need to stop sugar coating everything. Stop worrying about offending people and just draw a line. If you are good enough you get picked, if not, so sorry......(NOT).

What kind of world are we creating when we "lower the bar" so more people can get over. Shouldn't we be trying to raise everyone's performance to exceed todays limit, in order to make a better tomorrow?

If I'm running a business then I'd hire a blind, one legged, purple, homosexual canibal if I thought they would increase sales.

First, winning a scholarship does not teach a student that they are not good enough to do it on his or her own. It teaches a student that financial status doesn't mean self-worth. You basically just implied that if someone can't afford an education, then they are not good enough to receive one.

I think you are mis-understanding what a scholarship is. A scholarship is really nothing more than a financial award. If you get a scholarship, it means you are smart enough, and you are good enough and you received this award because of it. It doesn't lower the bar, but rather raises the bar. It finally puts a persons ability first, and a means to pay for it second.

There are thousands of people out there much smarter than I, but didn't get an education because of the financial burden of it. I was an above average student, who did get a "higher" education and received a degree because I could afford to do so. Looks like that bar you mentioned is lowered more than you think.


Trent

 

[MRMARCUS]

Reverse discrimination is not a word. Discrimination means when a certain sector of the population is discriminated against. The system is racist and non-whites do grow up with the understanding that they will not be a CEO. Are they not all white and crooked. I would like to know details of a BLACK scholarship because that obviously is not made public.
Again some people look at a glass as either half empty or half full.

 

[Quest4Less]

Correction.

I was not talking about those that are deserving of a helping "nudge". I was talking about those situations where an employer is forced to hire a "less qualified" individual due to having to meet a quota.

A friend of mine just out of college was told by one company straight out: "We would love to have you, but you are a white male. Sorry...."

I was not trying to "imply" anything about economics. Scholarships should be for those that can't afford higher education. I have no problem with that. As I said in my original post "if you are good enough, you get picked. If not, so sorry.."

My "issue" is when a qulified person is overlooked (for anything) because of bias/racism/discrimination. This appiles to all people regardless of their background. As I said earlier: If I was a boss I would hire the best person for the job regardless of what they are because I would want to make money.

Anyone ever hear the saying that "two wrongs don't make a right"? You just piss everyone off. We should only have one rule in todays society.... If you are the best/smartest/fastest/most qualified, then you get the job. Otherwise keep looking. No one, white/black/purple, should get a handout just because of what they are.

 

[spartan5782]

Re: Correction.

I was not talking about those that are deserving of a helping "nudge". I was talking about those situations where an employer is forced to hire a "less qualified" individual due to having to meet a quota.

A friend of mine just out of college was told by one company straight out: "We would love to have you, but you are a white male. Sorry...."

You are quite right when you speak of "quotas" in the business world. I will tell you that there is no "forced" quotas on any private business and only self imposed quotas in government. The government (and I'm speaking of US, not sure about Canadian) does give preference to business' that "resemble" the community, ie..if the community is 40% Black and out of 200 employees the business has 2 Blacks or 1%, they may lose special tax breaks and other incentives, but no, they are not forced to hire the Blacks over the Whites...their choice. That being said, it would not be prudent to hire an unqualified Black just to fill a quota for a tax break. You'd lose far more in production than you'd gain on an incentive.

However, all things being equal, it would be a consideration as to say "why not" hire the Black. But the problem has been access and equality in education...which drives experience and thus qualifications in the job market. The scholarships for the underpriviledged helps in this area.

I too am in a position to make these type of decisions, and if I'm faced with a Black candidate and a White candidate as an applicant or for promotion, the White having a degree and the Black not (or a lesser degree), the White applicant will get the job unless there is compelling experience difference (20 yrs. v/s 3 yrs). That's why the education process is so important and having equal access is paramount. But you still have to perform in the job market!

I've got the incentives infront of me everyday, and I can say with confidence that for an employer to tell an applicant they didn't get the job because of their skin color is a lie. They didn't get the job due to greed and ignorance of the employer. If the successful applicant was just as qualified, but happened to be Black, a choice was made, but not in deference to skin color. All things being equal and you are out of balance in the community, that may play a factor, but you did not chose an unqualified over a qualified applicant.

Again, to summation, an employer is never "forced" to hire an unqualified applicant over a qualified one. I would think Canada would be in line with this as well.

 

[MRMARCUS]

You guys kill me. You mean to tell me that a white guy got refused a job because the company cannot hire anymore whites.
That is a absolute lie and you would have a hard time proving that to me. What about all the educated east indians that are forced to drive cabs and do security, because they do not have "canadian experience".
I work for a large corporate company and they funnell white workers up the corporate ladder. One only has to walk down Bay st on a lunch hour and try and count the number of black workers there.
As for lowering the quota and the bar crap, look at the test to become a police officer. Are you telling me that some of those older officers can still past the entrance test that is given today.
Fat chance.
I would love to sit with you guys and show you how the system really is. My examples would fill this page.

 

[wollensak]

Getting to the Point

Right on, Mr Marcus. Couldn't have said it better myself. I have worked for private corporations and public service(government)
and can say that only government gives women of colour and ethnics any real jobs.

In my experience most of these people blow the socks off their
private sector (mostly white) counterparts. It's a real eye-opener to work with people from other racial and ethnic backgrounds who are so smart and able but get shut out of the outside corporate world.

I am white and a WASP, BTW.

 

[Quest4Less]

Believe it or not...

All I'm trying to say is that discrimination does happen BOTH ways. And yes my friend did get denied because he was white, I really don't care if you believe it or not.

Here is another situation for you: You have a white guy looking for a job and he does not quite fit the bill. He gets told, sorry you are not what we are looking for. He goes away, perhaps a little depressed, but he goes away. Now turn it around: You have a minority who does not quite fit the bill, he gets told sorry, and the next thing you hear is him/her screaming discrimination. What this means is there are some (not all) situations where the company will just hire the person rather than risk a big kerfuffle. So yes in this case the company has LOWERED the bar by employing a less than qualified person.

As for the cabbie example you put forth: Our educational standards are what they are. How do we know if another country has our standards? If someone needs surgery here do they want to "risk" that the doctor who was trained in another country has the same qualities as ours?

It is very UN P.C. these days to even suggest things are not right the way they are. You are immediately labled "racist" or "extremest" (sp?)... but that does not change the truth.

The bottom line is that discrimination is WRONG in any form, whether it's for minorities or against them. Pandering to any particular group because they may complain is also WRONG.

As I have said previously, a person should be rewarded on merit alone. How can anyone possible find fault with that?

 

[crocket]

How come some companies are all one colour or made up of minorities? Usually if I go for a job interview and I don't see my colour in abundance then I know that I didn't get the job. My experience in the working world is that all of the places that I got hired had mostly someone of my kind present than the other kind except with one job.
Also in the mall I have noticed the same thing. Some stores mostly hire one kind, and the other stores tend to hire minorities. Something is not right here?

 

[train]

Did someone say that the funding for these scholarships was put up by the Toronto Police Union ?

 

[rr_bill]

Re: Re: Reverse Discrimination..

.................................... I think you are mis-understanding what a scholarship is. A scholarship is really nothing more than a financial award. .................

May I add here:

Many, or perhaps even most scholarships are quite simply gifts, given to the school by a donor (usually a Philanthropist lol), on the specific condition that the award be made only to individuals meeting certain conditions. In other cases the school may simply receive monies from various sources to be applied as their scholarship committee sees fit.

However, any conditions which are set by the donor, must be honoured by the instutions awards committees or the money will be withdrawn. In such cases the institution has no choice other than to select the best candidate fulfilling the donors conditions. Conditions such as academic standing, sports performance, ethnic origin, religious affiliation, medical condition or combinations of the above are quite common, plus myriads more conditions are also commonly in place.

There are awards made to candidates of varying backgrounds, Black, White, Yellow, Red skin, including, Italian, First Nations, Roman Catholic, Inner City, those from certain foreign countries studying in Canada, children of employees of XYZ Corporation, students enrolled in a particular field e.g. ornithology and on and on.

Such awards are not discriminatory in a real sense, but are meant by the donor to give aid to a worthy student of some particular group that he has a special regard for.

Put yourself in the donors position - if you were well off and decided to offer a scholarship to the illegitimate offspring of TERB members you would be very unhappy if the award was given to a child fathered by an MBB member and you would be entirely within your rights to withdraw your funding from the institution.

 

[The Bandit]

Discrimination is rampant with white and black. People have to realize that companies hire on work experience, aptitude, wiilingness to adapt and learn,etc. Anyone who can't accept this is too narrowminded. Someone saying blacks aren't given the same opportunity, is a bunch of crap. Show a willingness to work and learn, and you'll get the same job as the guy next to you.

There are blacks at the top of major corporations, they made it didn't they?

 

[gala]

Bandit: That's simply ignorant.

There are few hiring situations where aptitude or willingness to learn or even experience is the most critical factor--the most critical factor is always who you know. If someone put in a good word for you, you probably make the short list--assuming the position was advertised at all.

Even when there's a hiring process it hardly ever boils down to one person who is clearly better than all the others. Usually you wind up with four or five people who are all roughly equal, any one of which would do.

In this situation people who are far from racist will tend to fall back on stereotypes and prejudices without even knowing it. They'll say they felt they "connected" better with the guy from their own race--and in a way, what's wrong with that?

But in another way it shuts people out.

Black people in Canada face all sorts of prejudices and stereotypes which add up to a huge disadvantage long before they get to that interview where they're going to be overlooked for racial reaosns anyway.

What to do about it is a different thing--I hate the idea of hiring quotas--I really hate that. I too feel things out to be "fair".

But it's not fair to state that there is no prejudice simply because you cannot find a sign that say "No blacks"--in Canada racism is much more subtle than that