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Sad day for the RCMP ..

n_v

Banned
Aug 26, 2001
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I understand Dm but 4 guys die before they get him?? Some serious attrition.
 

poorboy

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2001
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Sure they are trained. Usually very well trained, but there are many factors involved that aren't known.

Police guarding a house is very similar to soldiers guarding thier defensive position. Being human, they are susceptible to boredom, fatigue, weather and distractions from each other. It's impossible to remain alert for long lengths of time. Add on top of that that they usually aren't allowed to shoot unless shot at, and the odds are against the police.

Most police vests are designed to stop handguns, not rifle ammo. It's a compromise between mobility, comfort and protection. The vests soldiers wear are very bulky and heavy, but they can stop a 5.56mm round.
 

n_v

Banned
Aug 26, 2001
2,006
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36
poorboy said:
Sure they are trained. Usually very well trained, but there are many factors involved that aren't known.

Police guarding a house is very similar to soldiers guarding thier defensive position. Being human, they are susceptible to boredom, fatigue, weather and distractions from each other. It's impossible to remain alert for long lengths of time. Add on top of that that they usually aren't allowed to shoot unless shot at, and the odds are against the police.

Most police vests are designed to stop handguns, not rifle ammo. It's a compromise between mobility, comfort and protection. The vests soldiers wear are very bulky and heavy, but they can stop a 5.56mm round.
You make some good points but don't you think they would be alert after the first was gunned down. Or was this guy a serious sharp shooter.
 

Esco!

Banned
Nov 10, 2004
12,606
1
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Toront Ho
A high-powered rifle bullet will go right through a car door and any bullet proof vest so they really had no chance against this guy.
At least the suspect is dead, he wont be growing dope anymore
 

poorboy

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2001
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n_v said:
You make some good points but don't you think they would be alert after the first was gunned down. Or was this guy a serious sharp shooter.
Hard to say. If they are in an open field, it is equivalent to being in a "killing zone." with a semi auto rifle, you can squeeze off a sound every second quite easily. If it was an automatic, you can empty a 30 round magazine in about 3 seconds. Too hard to say without further details.
 

n_v

Banned
Aug 26, 2001
2,006
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maximadude said:
to legalize that shit, so that LE can get on with the serious work of protecting citizens in need of safety and security. A true shame to lose lives over something so inane as pot laws.
I think you are missing the point. The governemtn is slowly moving in that direction. there are grow houses legally sanctioned, this was not.
 

badseed

Assaholic
Apr 1, 2003
205
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Toronto
divasof416.com
n_v said:
I think you are missing the point. The governemtn is slowly moving in that direction. there are grow houses legally sanctioned, this was not.
I think you missed the point he was trying to make. These 4 men could have been doing something more important for the community other than raiding weed houses. I would expect this kind of outcome if the were raiding a terrorist group or a crime more affiliated with violence.
 

Svend

New member
Feb 10, 2005
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The proposed legislation, while it goes easier on people who are caught with a bit of dope, actually increases the penalties for those who grow or deal the stuff.
 

Coach

Member
Jul 9, 2002
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The courts need to come down harder on the owners of the grow ops!

No matter what your thoughts are this is truly a tragic day for the RCMP. :mad:
 

Keebler Elf

The Original Elf
Aug 31, 2001
14,701
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All they're saying is that the suspect used a high powered rifle. They don't say if it's automatic or semi-, or if it's an assault rifle, or what. I really doubt it was a hunting rifle.

The fact that the incident occured well after the initial raid probably had a lot to do with it (i.e. the police weren't on high alert).
 

Don

Active member
Aug 23, 2001
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poorboy said:
Add on top of that that they usually aren't allowed to shoot unless shot at, and the odds are against the police.
This is the key point I wanted to make that poorboy already made. Law enforcement is always at a disadvantage - if they follow the rules. Firing your weapon is a last resort. And if they don't follow the rules... well they are branded as trigger-happy and can be investigated. Obviously, criminals have less restraint.
 
Y

yychobbyist

Don said:
This is the key point I wanted to make that poorboy already made. Law enforcement is always at a disadvantage - if they follow the rules. Firing your weapon is a last resort. And if they don't follow the rules... well they are branded as trigger-happy and can be investigated. Obviously, criminals have less restraint.
The other thing that puts them at a severe disadvantage is that LE never knows for sure what it is and who it is that they're up against. All best intelligence isn't going to always tell them exactly who's in the house they're storming, exactly what weapons they do and do not have and exactly where everyone in the house or the area all the bad guys are going to be. That's a huge disadvantage for the good guys.

And, when the bad guys start shooting there isn't always place for the good guys to hide. Years ago when I worked for a certain LE agency that shall remain nameless I recall seeing a training video that the guys on the street had to watch. In the video a number of weapons were fired into such things as doors, car tires, car engine blocks, car doors, dumpsters and other things that all of us would probably duck behind if shooting started when we were out on a street. I recall that when it came to the high powered weaponry you had to get really lucky and hope the engine block was in the way or that the dumpster you were behind had something densely metal in it for you not to be shot. The lesson I took from that is that when the shooting starts you are seriously exposed anywhere and you damned well better shoot the bastard before he gets off too many pops at you.
 

matrix2004

Member
Dec 16, 2004
216
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depends how drunk I am
Don said:
Law enforcement is always at a disadvantage - if they follow the rules.
Agree. But another problem is that LE don't always follow the rules- I've seen it w/ my own eyes. In this case however, they probably did follow protocol...and paid for it w/ their lives. I wonder if this incident will change any LE procedures in handling situations of this nature in the future.
 

Manji

The Balance of Opposites
Jan 17, 2004
11,801
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The killer had a high powered rifle, knew the terrain and hit the officers when they least suspected that he would do something that drastic and deadly...

The RCMP officers may have had chance but not much of one....
 

Berlin

New member
Jan 31, 2003
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matrix2004 said:
I wonder if this incident will change any LE procedures in handling situations of this nature in the future.
Tragic indeed. Lets hope that RCMP/LE would learn from this one.
 

KBear

Supporting Member
Aug 17, 2001
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The guy was running an auto chop shop among other things and had a violent history. The marijuana side of it is just more interesting to discuss, but has little to do with the cops being killed.

There were more then 4 cops at the location, but all the other cops could do is duck down. The police are at a sever disadvantage against someone who does not care, has an assault rifle, and is hidden. The police force is not a military organization and can’t go into every situation as if they are dealing with someone who is going to start shooting at them with an assault rifle. Police training has little, if anything, to do with the police being killed.
 
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