Saskatchewan Sues

Mcluhan

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Saskatchewan Sues Harper..

Anybody here really understand equalization payments... (besides Vark of course, who will be an authority on the subject).

What are they bitching about? Honestly. Whatever it is, I'm all for it :)
 

xdog

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They want to continue to receive equalization payments from the have provinces (Ontario, Alberta, and BC) while excluding natural resources such as oil from the equation. They, along with NS and NFLD, want to be treated as if the oil revenues didn't exist. This is totally unfair to the other provinces.

x
 

hunter001

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F*cking Quebec is/was getting equalization payments as well. I am not sure if they still do.
 

LancsLad

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hunter001 said:
F*cking Quebec is/was getting equalization payments as well. I am not sure if they still do.


They get the most actually. Not per capita, thats one of the maritime basket cases,s but the three have transfer a fortune to the kwebek sinkhole each year.
 

hunter001

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LancsLad said:
They get the most actually. Not per capita, thats one of the maritime basket cases,s but the three have transfer a fortune to the kwebek sinkhole each year.
I guess it would be the corner stone of any separation agreement. Quebec would still have to get the transfer payments. :)
 

LancsLad

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hunter001 said:
I guess it would be the corner stone of any separation agreement. Quebec would still have to get the transfer payments. :)


They would get something all right but it wouldn't be more tranfer payments.


So long as the door hits their ass on the way out.
 
Jul 31, 2006
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Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland's attitude sounds like my wife.

What's mine is mine and what's yours is mine.

The transfer payments are to my knowledge, based on a areas ability to pay for infastructure and services to bring them up to an acceptable minimum standard that the rest of the areas of the country enjoy and can afford.

Resource revenues in my mind are no different than other revenues.

My guess is that there will be no monies contributed to the rest of the Country for many years. These Provinces want to stay subsidized by the rest of the Country for ever. And excluding resource revenues will accomplish that!
 

someone

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Mcluhan said:
Saskatchewan Sues Harper..

Anybody here really understand equalization payments... (besides Vark of course, who will be an authority on the subject).

What are they bitching about? Honestly. Whatever it is, I'm all for it :)
A couple of years ago, Martin gave in to blackmail when Danny Williams ordered the Canadian flag removed from government buildings in NL. He agreed to revise the Atlantic Accords (Without going into detailed, the Atlantic Accords say that although under the constitution, the federal government owns offshore resources, everyone will pretend Nova Scotia and NL do and allow them to collect all the royalties from offshore oil and gas that federal subsidies help developed in the first place) so that the income NL and NS get from offshore oil will not count as part of their fiscal capacity when calculating equalization payments. Furthermore, the changes in the Accords say that this will be the case even if the fiscal capacity of these provinces ends up being greater than that of the half provinces. Now NL does have a fiscal capacity greater than Ontario’s. The next point is key. Specifically, the Accords say that for a certain length of time (I think 8 years, but I could be wrong as I’m working from memory), NL and NS can continue to receive the deal they got under the then equalization program.

During the election, Harper agreed to uphold the Altantic Accords, if elected. Technically, he has done this. Provinces can now choose from the equalization program then in effect (under which NL and NS continue not to have offshore revenues count against them), or chose a new program. Generally the new program is richer but it has a qualification that NL and NS don’t like. 50% of resources revenues count and a province can’t receive equalization if its fiscal capacity is greater than that of the fiscal capacity any province not receiving equalization. Since NF now has a fiscal capacity greater than Ontario’s, they would no longer get handouts if they opt for the new system. Otherwise, they can just choose the old system. Danny, (and the primer’s of NS and Saskatchewan) don’t like this as they want the richer payments of the new option despite the fact that in the case of NS, they would be richer than Ontario. However, technically, Harper is keeping his word, as the provinces can opt for the old system, which is all the Atlantic Accords require.

xdog said:
They want to continue to receive equalization payments from the have provinces (Ontario, Alberta, and BC) while excluding natural resources such as oil from the equation. They, along with NS and NFLD, want to be treated as if the oil revenues didn't exist. This is totally unfair to the other provinces.

x
Technically, it is not the richer provincse that pay equalization but the general taxpayers in all provinces. Of course, since the governments of the richer provinces don’t receive any equalization payments, this means that there is a net transfer from the taxpayers in the richer provinces to the poorer provinces. I agree that it is unfair, especially when a so call poor province ends up having a higher fiscal capacity than Ontario.
 
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TQM

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well, someone,

nice account.

A couple of points:

1) Harper wanted to find a way to give the other provinces more money. The former accord wouldn't allow it, without having to give all provinces more.

So Harper decides to gut the accord and propose a new deal which would pay the provinces he wants to pay exactly how he wants, but not pay more to the provinces he doesn't want to pay.

NL and NS have the "option" of going one way or the other - but neither of them address the fact that Harper wants to increase some, but not others. NL and NS don't get in on the extra bucks.

How do you rate this? Harper gets to claim he's still backing the original accord, while in fact, not backing the original accord (breaking it in spirit). I'm not going to say the orignal Martin accord was good - or bad - but this is exactly Harper kind of politics - disingenuous to an extreme.

Remember, he's having this battle with his fellow Conservatives!

2) There was an interesting rationale to the Martin Atlantic accord - resources are a provincial concern, except for "offshore" stuff. This exception seems a little unfair. Alberta gets its oil revenue directly. Why shouldn't otherwise poor Newfoundland?

So it was thought far better to impact Newfoundland's economy this way than by other means - allow them to get their resource revenue - keep the revenue in NL the way it is in Alberta.

And better yet, given how bad NL's economy has been for so many years, and how promising this oil stuff is - let's let them keep their "poor" status for a number of years, and really get the province going.

I'm not saying he was right. I'm just pointing out his rationale.
 

xdog

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TQM said:
nice account.

A couple of points:

1) Harper wanted to find a way to give the other provinces more money. The former accord wouldn't allow it, without having to give all provinces more.

So Harper decides to gut the accord and propose a new deal which would pay the provinces he wants to pay exactly how he wants, but not pay more to the provinces he doesn't want to pay.

NL and NS have the "option" of going one way or the other - but neither of them address the fact that Harper wants to increase some, but not others. NL and NS don't get in on the extra bucks.

How do you rate this? Harper gets to claim he's still backing the original accord, while in fact, not backing the original accord (breaking it in spirit). I'm not going to say the orignal Martin accord was good - or bad - but this is exactly Harper kind of politics - disingenuous to an extreme.

Remember, he's having this battle with his fellow Conservatives!

2) There was an interesting rationale to the Martin Atlantic accord - resources are a provincial concern, except for "offshore" stuff. This exception seems a little unfair. Alberta gets its oil revenue directly. Why shouldn't otherwise poor Newfoundland?

So it was thought far better to impact Newfoundland's economy this way than by other means - allow them to get their resource revenue - keep the revenue in NL the way it is in Alberta.

And better yet, given how bad NL's economy has been for so many years, and how promising this oil stuff is - let's let them keep their "poor" status for a number of years, and really get the province going.

I'm not saying he was right. I'm just pointing out his rationale.

You're right, let NL keep their oil revenues. As long as they no longer qualify for equalization payments, that would be fair.

x
 

someone

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TQM said:
nice account.

A couple of points:

Harper wanted to find a way to give the other provinces more money. The former accord wouldn't allow it, without having to give all provinces more.

1) So Harper decides to gut the accord and propose a new deal which would pay the provinces he wants to pay exactly how he wants, but not pay more to the provinces he doesn't want to pay.
The same point can be made for every change that has every been made to equalization. That is why Martin made the side deals regarding the Accord.


TQM said:
2) NL and NS have the "option" of going one way or the other - but neither of them address the fact that Harper wants to increase some, but not others. NL and NS don't get in on the extra bucks.
Which is why they are whining. BTW, NS is going with the new option as they are not up to the fiscal capacity of Ontario yet. The only provinces that don't get anything extra under the new option are those with a fiscal capacity greater than Ontario's (and of course Ontario and Alberta which get nothing under either option).

TQM said:
How do you rate this? Harper gets to claim he's still backing the original accord, while in fact, not backing the original accord (breaking it in spirit). I'm not going to say the orignal Martin accord was good - or bad - but this is exactly Harper kind of politics - disingenuous to an extreme. .
Technically, he is upholding the letter of the accord. As far as the spirit is concerned, the changes Martin agreed to were wrong to begin with.

TQM said:
Remember, he's having this battle with his fellow Conservatives!
Who cares? That does not change the facts.
TQM said:
2) There was an interesting rationale to the Martin Atlantic accord - resources are a provincial concern, except for "offshore" stuff. This exception seems a little unfair. Alberta gets its oil revenue directly. Why shouldn't otherwise poor Newfoundland?
First, before the changes, 75% of the revenue was already exempt from equalization. In Alberta’s case, 100% of its oil revenue is counted against equalization. That is why it does not get any equalization payments.

TQM said:
So it was thought far better to impact Newfoundland's economy this way than by other means - allow them to get their resource revenue - keep the revenue in NL the way it is in Alberta.
What you are saying makes no sense. Alberta’s resource revenue is counted against its equalization entitlement, which is a major reason that Alberta does not get any equalization payments. If you really want them to be treated the same as Alberta, you should be against the changes that were made the Accords. In fact, you should have wanted changes in the opposite direction and been in favour of reducing the revenues that were exempt.
 

LancsLad

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Its so typically Canadian. Those who produce the least, expect the most and when they don't get it they cry the loudest.
 

TQM

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someone,

Technically, he is upholding the letter of the accord.

I believe that that is technically false.

From the accord:

Recognizing that the obligations intended to be assumed by the Government of Canada, as outlined in this document, will require legislation, the Government of Canada will seek legislative authority from Parliament that will authorize additional payments to provide 100 per cent offset against reductions in Equalization payments resulting from offshore resource revenues.

You are trying to spin that as per this statement the province of Newfoundland maintains its 100 per cent offset. On the new plan, though, there is an impact on the percentage offset (one harmful to Newfoundland - but only harmful in comparison to some of the other provinces). That is, with the new plan there is the de facto appearance of a lesser offset for Newfoundland, given the increases to the other provinces.

The other provinces didn't complain when Newfoundland was given the 100 percent offset - it seemed like the right thing to do. But more to the point, there was no de fact violation of any clause, as there is here.

I wouldn't presume to predict how a court would decide the matter, but it's foolish to think there isn't the makings of an interesting case here.

Harper's dare was an act of extreme stupidity, and it will cost him at the polls.
 

FOOTSNIFFER

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Something Lancslad has written that I actually agree with.

When the resource boom ends, and it will, I think we'll be in big trouble in this country. We're overgoverned, overtaxed, the delivery of government services has descended to being a shambles. I just got back home after being on the subway, something I haven't done for easily 5 years now. I constantly creaked to a halt in the dingy tunnels, they were full at 9 pm...and the upshot is that it took more than an hour and 20 minutes to get home, compared to 35 minutes by car. We pay half our income in taxes, yet we're told to accept chronic underinvestment in our infrastructure and lousy service to boot.

Go to France, Switzerland, Germany and you'll be totally blown away by the professionalism of their publicly delivered services. This is holding us back big time....
 

someone

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TQM said:
Technically, he is upholding the letter of the accord.

I believe that that is technically false.

From the accord:

Recognizing that the obligations intended to be assumed by the Government of Canada, as outlined in this document, will require legislation, the Government of Canada will seek legislative authority from Parliament that will authorize additional payments to provide 100 per cent offset against reductions in Equalization payments resulting from offshore resource revenues.

You are trying to spin that as per this statement the province of Newfoundland maintains its 100 per cent offset. On the new plan, though, there is an impact on the percentage offset (one harmful to Newfoundland - but only harmful in comparison to some of the other provinces). That is, with the new plan there is the de facto appearance of a lesser offset for Newfoundland, given the increases to the other provinces.
I’m not trying to spin anything. I’m just trying to explain the issues to you as you don’t seem to understand them. Under the changes, Newfoundland is free to stick to the old rules, as they have decided to do. Thus, they are free to keep getting handouts even through they now have a fiscal capacity that is greater than Ontario’s. They are no worse off in comparison to other provinces as no other province with a fiscal capacity greater than Ontario is entitled to ANY equalization. Therefore, they are better off than any other have-province. Thus, you are just plan incorrect.

TQM said:
The other provinces didn't complain when Newfoundland was given the 100 percent offset - it seemed like the right thing to do. But more to the point, there was no de fact violation of any clause, as there is here.
You are completely wrong here. Other provinces did object and immediately demanded the same treatment, but did not get it. If you use Google, you should come up with plenty of references to Saskatchewan’s objections to not getting the same treatment. In fact, the way the formula worked out, at the marginal Sask’s equalization payments were effectively being clawed back at over 100% (this is because they were part of the 5 province standard and hence an increase in their oil revenues increased the 5 province standard, making them even worse off than a straight dollar-for-dollar deduction. However, I won’t borrow you with the details as I doubt if they are important to you).

Regarding Martin’s changes, I have no idea how anyone could possibly say that “it seemed like the right thing to do”. From the point of view of the country, it was a very stupid move.
TQM said:
I wouldn't presume to predict how a court would decide the matter, but it's foolish to think there isn't the makings of an interesting case here.
Well, I will presume to predict how the courts will decide the matter regarding NL and NS. Even if the federal government had broken the accords, it would not matter. The accords are not a contract. Contracts commit both parties to an exchange of actions (DQ can likely give you a more detailed explanation, I believe lawyers would use the term “consideration”). The Accords do not require NS or NF to do anything in exchange for favourable treatment from Ottawa. Hence, constitutional legal experts think that the courts will have to conclude that the accords are simply a statement of government policy. Governments are allowed to change policy as they like. Don’t forget, the courts have already made a similar ruling regarding the pledge Ontario’s premier signed with a tax lobby group during the last provincial election. However, technically, he has not broken the accords to begin with, so they have even less of a case.

As far as Sask is concerned, their premier has only asked the government’s legal people to investigate the possibility of taking this to court. It is hard to imagine any grounds they could have that would be successful. It is likely just a publicity stunt. The provinces tried the same thing when the federal government introduced the GST. Although the constitution actually says that only the federal government has the power of indirect taxation (sales taxes), the provinces actually took the feds to court for what must have been a publicity stunt.

TQM said:
Harper's dare was an act of extreme stupidity, and it will cost him at the polls.
I won’t predict the effect it will have on public opinion, but in terms of the merits of the case, it is good policy. I’m sure that you would realize this if you understood the issues involved (normally, I would not be so blunt, but as you are blunt with others, I’m sure you won’t mind me being honest with you). Whether it is good politics, I don’t know. Time will tell. It may cost him his three Newfoundland seats (although I lived in Hearn’s riding through two federal elections and he was pretty popular, so I would not discount his getting reelected). However, it is unlikely that three seats would affect the outcome of a federal election.
 

xdog

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TQM said:

I know. Fair is fair. The maritimes (along with Quebec) have lived on the public tit way too long. It's time to grow up. How many jobs does Ontario have to lose before it becomes a have-not province? Equalizations payments is just another name for welfare.


x
 

dcbogey

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TQM and Someone - you can discuss the details of the Atlantic Accord and equilization payments but the real issue is that the provinces will always want more. I am no fan of Harper but this "conservative" government has been very generous to the provinces and they still want more.
 

TQM

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someone

You are still spinning. I suspect our disagreements here are small (though I think you let your sentiments get in the way of your predictions).

Regardless, you give us this:

I’m not trying to spin anything. I’m just trying to explain the issues to you as you don’t seem to understand them. Under the changes, Newfoundland is free to stick to the old rules, as they have decided to do. Thus, they are free to keep getting handouts even through they now have a fiscal capacity that is greater than Ontario’s. They are no worse off in comparison to other provinces as no other province with a fiscal capacity greater than Ontario is entitled to ANY equalization. Therefore, they are better off than any other have-province. Thus, you are just plan incorrect.

From the perspective of the "old" program, the new program is biased (de facto, as I had said) against Newfoundland (and perhaps others).

The Atlantic Accord was a deal between Newfoundland and the federal govt.

http://www.gov.nl.ca/atlanticaccord/agreement.htm

It provided a specific offset for offshore oil revenues to Newfoundland. Basically, what that means is that the offshore oil revenues aren't to count when calculating Newfoundland's transfer payments.

Harper is saying okay. We can keep that, should you decide. Or, we can offer to the provinces a richer transfer, but one that won't honour the 100% offset.

So you again point out no impact on Newfoundland. I again respond that there is a de facto impact on Newfoundland - that is, transfer payments to some other provinces will now increase. Hence, from the perspective of the old program, Newfoundland is no longer getting the 100% offset. When all is said and done, and the transfer payments are made, it will have the de facto appearance that Newfoundland didn't get the 100% offset.

Harper has engaged in a trick. He's wants to say he supports the Atlantic Accord, but he is, without a doubt undermining it's goal.

Remember, the main criticism of Harper has been the "hidden agenda". He won't come out and say he doesn't support he Atlantic Accord, but his actions speak louder than his words.

As for the political impact - well all political impact is temporary - so who knows how things will actually go - but you are wrong to assume that the current impact is just in Newfoundland, from this.
 

someone

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TQM, most of your post just repeats points I already explain the error of. Please see my previous posts for elaboration. Your one partly new point is the last one, that I might be “wrong to assume that the current impact is just in Newfoundland, from this” I noticed in the Globe today that Ontario’s premier is against the federal government giving in to blackmail by giving more Ontario Money to the three provinces in Question. Thus, you could be right on this point but not in the direction you think. However, I’m more interested in the merits of the case and I think that any fool can see that the changes Martin made to the Atlantic accords, when he gave into blackmail, were a very negative move.
 
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