It's the title of an article in this week's Now Magazine about working ladies being afraid to talk to cops because it sometimes puts them in legal jeopardy. What do you folks think of the article (if you've read it)? Page 21.
Scared into silence............
- Thread starter Kathy P
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I haven't read the article (yet) but isn't that why the cops held that meeting at 521 Church a little while ago? i.e. Cops wanted to open up the lines of communication?
the article by Adria was meant to point out the folly in our laws and the fear that is felt towards those who push those laws.
just a week and a half after Cassandra Do(who was Trans) was found dead, the Trans Track was swept by police; two days after Lien Pham was found dead (the morning of the 519 Meeting) the police did another huge sweep. a co-worker of mine at Maggie's was one of the girls picked up last week, and there was 18 other girls in the paddy wagon with her.
the only 'irrelevant' factor in all of this is that the sweeps were done on the street, not indoors. i think the cops should have focused their energies in cracking this case, or even going around and doing outreach to the sp's warning them about the psycho(s) that are doing these killings.
just a week and a half after Cassandra Do(who was Trans) was found dead, the Trans Track was swept by police; two days after Lien Pham was found dead (the morning of the 519 Meeting) the police did another huge sweep. a co-worker of mine at Maggie's was one of the girls picked up last week, and there was 18 other girls in the paddy wagon with her.
the only 'irrelevant' factor in all of this is that the sweeps were done on the street, not indoors. i think the cops should have focused their energies in cracking this case, or even going around and doing outreach to the sp's warning them about the psycho(s) that are doing these killings.
I'm sure in their perverse way they would rationalize it down to the fewer SP's out there (indoors or on the street) the lower the chances of one of them becoming a victim. They should be focusing on the suspects (if any) and not the SP's. Sounds like they've missed the point, but I'll reserve judgement until I've read the article.Angel Aurora said:Laurel,
I have to wonder.......does LE have their priorities staight? Aurora xxx
Angel Aurora:
Maggie's has caused a stink along with other sex pro advocates, and though some officers have been good (ie Wendy Leaver, Jackie O'Keefe and Craig Sanson), i think alot of what they are telling us is just lip service.
unfortunately some of our officers have been taken off our case and placed onto another prominent case for the time being.
Maggie's has caused a stink along with other sex pro advocates, and though some officers have been good (ie Wendy Leaver, Jackie O'Keefe and Craig Sanson), i think alot of what they are telling us is just lip service.
unfortunately some of our officers have been taken off our case and placed onto another prominent case for the time being.
I read it...
After, in fact half way through reading I thought: Factual or not this is just another typical NOW rant against the police. After all what is the NOW all about anyways? They look for little anthills and turn them into mountains any chance they can get to rant against the police, the government, or any large corporations. Rant, rant, rant... that's their entire MO.
As far as the police doing a sweep of the trans track and then later another street sweep I have to go with The Doctor on this one. (Well sort of) Not only do they get them out of harms way for a couple hours… maybe they might stumble upon some useful info. Add that to the fact that public attention is/was very high on the more highly visible street scene so they want to appear like they are doing something. As far as sweeping the Trans Track… maybe it was worthwhile as the Trans Community is very small and tightly knit whether they work the streets have ads in paper or internet or whatever. In May-Ling’s case though they are way way off base. The street scene for females and those that do mainstream advertising are completely separate groups and rarely if ever do they mix or intertwine at all.
As far as sex workers lodging complaints or making reports or offering info to LE with or with out fear of being hassled or arrested… I think it boils down to individual cases. The LE officer if in fact acts in a malicious way toward the sex worker instead of being helpful or an advocate for her problem is making an individual choice. I don’t think it’s standard Toronto Police policy. Also don’t forget the old saying… you get more with honey then vinegar. Over my 40 some years I have had the life experience of having to deal with LE from both sides of the law many times. Whenever I was polite and professional with them 99% of the time I got the same back. (Except in Quebec, but that’s another story) But guess what whenever I started yelling and screaming and swearing etc at them… I very quickly found myself in handcuffs. And yes BTW some of these incidents were involving the street scene. As, back in late 80’s early 90’s my GF of 2.5 yrs. was a streetwalker on the infamous Lakeshore Motel Strip and in Parkdale. More times then I want to remember I had to go down to College St. or out to the West End Detention Centre to bail her out. I remember as fresh as if it were yesterday the night she came home with redness all around her neck. I asked her what happened and she told me a john tried to choke her. I told her to tell the police… but she would not. She had the fear factor. I remember another time though I was sitting in the window seat of a restaurant in one of the motels over looking the Lakeshore watching her do her thing. A cop car came up… rolled down his window and talk to her for five mins. When she later came inside I asked her what did he want. Oh him she said he is a nice guy… all the girls down here like him… he was just checking if I am OK.
So I guess my point being… that just like any other biz or organization there are good and bad in LE. We just have to learn to recognize and work with it. An old long time guru of mine who many years ago taught me how to sell use to say to me always… before you make a pitch to any individual or group “consider the audience” And when selling to a group… pick out the leader and sell to them… once they buy… the whole group will buy. So forget the bad guys… sell to the good guys… the others will turn around eventually. Or is that ‘turn over’.
As always... Respect.
After, in fact half way through reading I thought: Factual or not this is just another typical NOW rant against the police. After all what is the NOW all about anyways? They look for little anthills and turn them into mountains any chance they can get to rant against the police, the government, or any large corporations. Rant, rant, rant... that's their entire MO.
As far as the police doing a sweep of the trans track and then later another street sweep I have to go with The Doctor on this one. (Well sort of) Not only do they get them out of harms way for a couple hours… maybe they might stumble upon some useful info. Add that to the fact that public attention is/was very high on the more highly visible street scene so they want to appear like they are doing something. As far as sweeping the Trans Track… maybe it was worthwhile as the Trans Community is very small and tightly knit whether they work the streets have ads in paper or internet or whatever. In May-Ling’s case though they are way way off base. The street scene for females and those that do mainstream advertising are completely separate groups and rarely if ever do they mix or intertwine at all.
As far as sex workers lodging complaints or making reports or offering info to LE with or with out fear of being hassled or arrested… I think it boils down to individual cases. The LE officer if in fact acts in a malicious way toward the sex worker instead of being helpful or an advocate for her problem is making an individual choice. I don’t think it’s standard Toronto Police policy. Also don’t forget the old saying… you get more with honey then vinegar. Over my 40 some years I have had the life experience of having to deal with LE from both sides of the law many times. Whenever I was polite and professional with them 99% of the time I got the same back. (Except in Quebec, but that’s another story) But guess what whenever I started yelling and screaming and swearing etc at them… I very quickly found myself in handcuffs. And yes BTW some of these incidents were involving the street scene. As, back in late 80’s early 90’s my GF of 2.5 yrs. was a streetwalker on the infamous Lakeshore Motel Strip and in Parkdale. More times then I want to remember I had to go down to College St. or out to the West End Detention Centre to bail her out. I remember as fresh as if it were yesterday the night she came home with redness all around her neck. I asked her what happened and she told me a john tried to choke her. I told her to tell the police… but she would not. She had the fear factor. I remember another time though I was sitting in the window seat of a restaurant in one of the motels over looking the Lakeshore watching her do her thing. A cop car came up… rolled down his window and talk to her for five mins. When she later came inside I asked her what did he want. Oh him she said he is a nice guy… all the girls down here like him… he was just checking if I am OK.
So I guess my point being… that just like any other biz or organization there are good and bad in LE. We just have to learn to recognize and work with it. An old long time guru of mine who many years ago taught me how to sell use to say to me always… before you make a pitch to any individual or group “consider the audience” And when selling to a group… pick out the leader and sell to them… once they buy… the whole group will buy. So forget the bad guys… sell to the good guys… the others will turn around eventually. Or is that ‘turn over’.
As always... Respect.
Re: I read it...
you are right, there are good cops and there are bad ones. what it all comes down to though is that they are employed by system that shuns/segregates/criminalizes/victimizes sex pros.
i have had my own run ins with the police and i can say that there are instances where it doesn't matter how you act towards them, they are going to be assholes. now i understand that my particular situation is quite unique (i won't bore anyone with details), but at 13 years old i became aware of what police brutality is.
now, let me say once again that there are good cops; i have met a few great ones. and sure, there are those who will not condone police brutality/misusing authority, but the police as a whole are in denial.
look at Fantino and how he dealt with racial profiling. how can he honestly say that it doesn't happen here in Toronto? i have seen it inflicted on others, and so many others have witnessed or experienced it. or how about how the police will kick, beat or run someone over with their bikes while someone is sleeping in the park? no, but again, this isn't happening.
just like with the violation i experienced at the hands the coppers, it is addressed with DENIAL. so i think the bottom line is that until the police really look at what is happening, and until the laws are changed...people are going to fear the police.
you are right, there are good cops and there are bad ones. what it all comes down to though is that they are employed by system that shuns/segregates/criminalizes/victimizes sex pros.
i have had my own run ins with the police and i can say that there are instances where it doesn't matter how you act towards them, they are going to be assholes. now i understand that my particular situation is quite unique (i won't bore anyone with details), but at 13 years old i became aware of what police brutality is.
now, let me say once again that there are good cops; i have met a few great ones. and sure, there are those who will not condone police brutality/misusing authority, but the police as a whole are in denial.
look at Fantino and how he dealt with racial profiling. how can he honestly say that it doesn't happen here in Toronto? i have seen it inflicted on others, and so many others have witnessed or experienced it. or how about how the police will kick, beat or run someone over with their bikes while someone is sleeping in the park? no, but again, this isn't happening.
just like with the violation i experienced at the hands the coppers, it is addressed with DENIAL. so i think the bottom line is that until the police really look at what is happening, and until the laws are changed...people are going to fear the police.
Sad to say… I think society as a whole ‘shuns’ etc sex workers. At least in a group they do in public or in a group conversation. Most people I know if you talk to them one on one will offer supportive comments and say there is nothing wrong with it. Just like most guys I know will say there is nothing wrong with being gay. But in the locker room they will talk a different lingo. Such is the hypocrisy of society sometimes. Also don’t forget that most of society is or have been exposed to sex workers only by what they see on TV or in movies. Or what they see on the streets. And lets face it… we need to do lots of cleaning up here on the streets. A lot if not most girls working the streets these days are addicts and need help. If not for being addicts they would not be there. And a lot of other girls working the streets have pimps who are forcing them to be there. And if not for that, they would not be there. And further more a lot of girls on one certain track in downtown TO are out and out rip offs. All of the above giving a very bad name to the industry as a whole. So I think it behoves us to educate the public and even to do a little bit of self-policing. All of the above (except for the scum pimps) are humans and deserve nothing less then to be treated as such. Society needs to be educated about this. We need to have more treatment centers etc for those who want out. We need to have harsher punishment for pimps who force girls to work. That aside we need to educate the public about the real pros who are college and university students, those who are buying houses and cars, those who are raising families, those who are just living a ‘normal’ life just that their job happens to be sex worker. The public needs to be ‘re-programmed’ I guess if you will that there is nothing wrong with working in this industry. It’s not morally repundent etc.
I too have had my run-ins with LE. I was slapped around and roughed up. I was told ‘next time we see you, your going down to Cheery Beach’ etc. Guess what my job was at the time (or a least one of the times) I was handing out fliers for a body rub joint on The Yonge Street Mall. I was all of 16yrs old had long hair half way down my back and wore torn blue jeans all the time everywhere. Hence their ‘reason’ for bothering me all the time. So I have some grasp on the word harassment… I been there, done that… or had it done to me might be a better way to put it… I know how it feels. I still say though that most encounters I have had with LE in the past couple decades have been totally professional and for the most part respectable from both sides.
Yes I believe that there is racial profiling on some LE officers’ parts. Again I think this an individual choice. Not an official policy of the Toronto Police. And of course Fantino is going to deny it. He has to. And like I say I don’t think it’s official policy so… he has a right to deny it. I could say a lot more about this but I don’t want to go there right now.
I am sorry to hear that you too suffered brutality at the hands of some bad LEs. My hat if off to you that seemingly you can put that aside now in your dealings with them and see they are not all the same. My hope I guess would be that we not color all police the same… just as we would ask them that they not color all us the same.
I wish I had time to comment some more… but it’s 5 O’clock and I hear (even though my office phone and cell is off) a ‘Little Brat’ by name of Egyptian Goddess calling. So I better go. Or tonight I’ll be getting both shunned and segregated. LOL.
I too have had my run-ins with LE. I was slapped around and roughed up. I was told ‘next time we see you, your going down to Cheery Beach’ etc. Guess what my job was at the time (or a least one of the times) I was handing out fliers for a body rub joint on The Yonge Street Mall. I was all of 16yrs old had long hair half way down my back and wore torn blue jeans all the time everywhere. Hence their ‘reason’ for bothering me all the time. So I have some grasp on the word harassment… I been there, done that… or had it done to me might be a better way to put it… I know how it feels. I still say though that most encounters I have had with LE in the past couple decades have been totally professional and for the most part respectable from both sides.
Yes I believe that there is racial profiling on some LE officers’ parts. Again I think this an individual choice. Not an official policy of the Toronto Police. And of course Fantino is going to deny it. He has to. And like I say I don’t think it’s official policy so… he has a right to deny it. I could say a lot more about this but I don’t want to go there right now.
I am sorry to hear that you too suffered brutality at the hands of some bad LEs. My hat if off to you that seemingly you can put that aside now in your dealings with them and see they are not all the same. My hope I guess would be that we not color all police the same… just as we would ask them that they not color all us the same.
I wish I had time to comment some more… but it’s 5 O’clock and I hear (even though my office phone and cell is off) a ‘Little Brat’ by name of Egyptian Goddess calling. So I better go. Or tonight I’ll be getting both shunned and segregated. LOL.
