Should James Forcillo (cops who shot Sammy Yatim) be charged with murder??

[Phil C. McNasty]

I voted 'no' also. Reason is as soon as you take one step towards a cop with a knife in your hand he is legally entitled to shoot you.

Should Forcillo perhaps have waited things out more, yes you could argue he should have. But legally speaking he didnt have to, and you can't charge (or convict) people based on anything else then the letter of the law

 

[fuji]

I voted wait and see. He sure looks guilty for the last six shots but we don't have the whole story.

First three should get him transferred to parking detail but weren't illegal, just the result of his incredibly poor judgement.

I also agree that charges would likely be less than a murder charge. Maybe negligent homicide.

 

[blackrock13]

Something tells me the OP didn't expect the results to date.

 

[WinterHawk]

You can tell by Chief Blair's original reaction to the video he thinks that there was no reason for this kid to be shot and killed by this officer.

Police by and large in North America are out of control. They are not peace officers or guardians of both the law and society, but bullies hiding behind a badge and a gun. Poorly trained and supervised, more interested in writing tickets or catching you on your cell phone than protecting society and serving the public good. They have more in common with the crooks they chase than you and I.

You can see from the video that no other officer had their gun drawn until he started shooting, there was a female officer there who was closer to the front steps and both of her hands were on her gun belt.

Toronto is not a war zone, police do not put their lives on the line everyday they put on their uniforms. They are in less danger than the guy from the CAA who tows disabled cars off the highway. He does take his life in his hands every time he hooks up a car.

When COPS used to walk a beat and go into bars to toss drunks into the Paddy Wagon, they knew how to handle themselves and some punk with a knife or a broken bottle. Not now, different mind set and both physically and mentally unable to handle a situation without drawing a gun. And as we see in this case over reacting.

In this age of cell phone cameras, we the public get to see just how heroic some of our police, ambulance and fire fighters are, and how pathetic. They're human and make mistakes, but their mistakes cost lives.

The police need better and repeated training in close quarter combat using both lethal and non lethal methods in bringing a situation under control. Issue better body armour to provide protection against edged weapons as most of us don't have guns. Batons, shotguns with bean bags, flash bang grenades, hell even old fashioned stink bombs.

As for the street cars, I believe there are switches on the outside to open and close the doors keeping a perp inside. Also in the future it should be policy to kill power to the overhead wires so the car can move.

Finally every officer should be equipped with full audio and video equipment so we can see what happened from the perspective of all of the officers there. Possibly something like google glasses to make sure that there can be no cover ups.

 

[blackrock13]

You can tell by Chief Blair's original reaction to the video he thinks that there was no reason for this kid to be shot and killed by this officer.

Police by and large in North America are out of control. They are not peace officers or guardians of both the law and society, but bullies hiding behind a badge and a gun. Poorly trained and supervised, more interested in writing tickets or catching you on your cell phone than protecting society and serving the public good. They have more in common with the crooks they chase than you and I.

You can see from the video that no other officer had their gun drawn until he started shooting, there was a female officer there who was closer to the front steps and both of her hands were on her gun belt.

Toronto is not a war zone, police do not put their lives on the line everyday they put on their uniforms. They are in less danger than the guy from the CAA who tows disabled cars off the highway. He does take his life in his hands every time he hooks up a car.

When COPS used to walk a beat and go into bars to toss drunks into the Paddy Wagon, they knew how to handle themselves and some punk with a knife or a broken bottle. Not now, different mind set and both physically and mentally unable to handle a situation without drawing a gun. And as we see in this case over reacting.

In this age of cell phone cameras, we the public get to see just how heroic some of our police, ambulance and fire fighters are, and how pathetic. They're human and make mistakes, but their mistakes cost lives.

The police need better and repeated training in close quarter combat using both lethal and non lethal methods in bringing a situation under control. Issue better body armour to provide protection against edged weapons as most of us don't have guns. Batons, shotguns with bean bags, flash bang grenades, hell even old fashioned stink bombs.

As for the street cars, I believe there are switches on the outside to open and close the doors keeping a perp inside. Also in the future it should be policy to kill power to the overhead wires so the car can move.

Finally every officer should be equipped with full audio and video equipment so we can see what happened from the perspective of all of the officers there. Possibly something like google glasses to make sure that there can be no cover ups.

Dream on.

You can't tell diddly from Chief Blair's reaction.

Not having guns draw, doesn't mean they weren't ready, as the safety strap is open on many guns and some officers have their hand on their forearm.

It's not like you can stop the power by walking down the block and flick a switch. The power grid is not that small. Yes, there is a switch that will close the door but it's about 4 feet from where SY was standing and no one knew at that point that the knife was his only weapon.

Better body armour. I don' tknow of any the will protect you again blade and firearms that doesn't have weight and mobility issues at a premium, not what you want to wear on an eight hour shift in the summer.

Remind us of the last time that a CAA tow driver was attacked and killed?

As for the a/v feeds, there are a number of test programs in other cities and thy have problems the least of which is basically privacy and control issues to be dealt with. you were a member when that was discussed in great detail in a thread.

With everyone with cell phone videos, the days of tossing anyone in paddy wagons is over.

 

[bretthart]

Agreed, but sometimes the threat of a kick upside the head, real or imagined is needed.

I remember visiting my brother in a small Ontario town and we met, on the main street, a guy/neighbour who was a member of a very elite unit in the military, never confirmed, but not the best kept secret in this town, yet my brother had no reason to exaggerate, and the man never had to prove it, you just saw it in his posture, mannerisms and soft spoken words, and more so in what he didn't say or do. Much like Sir Sean Connery in the Presidium. The unit used to practise just down the road at their secret base, that of course no one in the area knew anything about, but no one could explain the strange muffled sounds of low level flight of helicopters down the river's course late at night and the sounds of splashes in the water.

A more important question is will you see her again? No real need to answer.

You really sound like you live off TV and fantasy. I would wager you are a shut in and on medication. I am serious. Your post reek of of a disjointed and scary fantasy world.

 

[bretthart]

He should get 2nd degree murder. There's no evidence to show it was premeditated (ie. he decided to kill the kid before he got there) but in the heat of the moment, he decided to execute the kid when he clearly had other options available.

He says, as caught on video, "if you move your foot one step closer you will fucking die". At that point the kids actually moves backwards The meat head was itching to kill someone.

 

[bretthart]

Man are you people going to be disapointed. No way it gets near a murder. MAYBE the lowest manslaughter and only because its become a political decision and not based solely on the evidence.

Don't get me wrong. I hate to see things like this. I feel for the family.
But I don't see the issue with this.

Really? Watch the enhanced video with another cop caught casually urging fattie McPig to shoot the kid. And wait for the TTC video. I know Crown Attorney's who have already seen it. The kid was backing off when he was shot. Trust me, you'll see a manslaughter charge at minimum.

 

[Julian]

Dream on.

You can't tell diddly from Chief Blair's reaction.

Not having guns draw, doesn't mean they weren't ready, as the safety strap is open on many guns and some officers have their hand on their forearm.

It's not like you can stop the power by walking down the block and flick a switch. The power grid is not that small. Yes, there is a switch that will close the door but it's about 4 feet from where SY was standing and no one knew at that point that the knife was his only weapon.

Better body armour. I don' tknow of any the will protect you again blade and firearms that doesn't have weight and mobility issues at a premium, not what you want to wear on an eight hour shift in the summer.

Remind us of the last time that a CAA tow driver was attacked and killed?

As for the a/v feeds, there are a number of test programs in other cities and thy have problems the least of which is basically privacy and control issues to be dealt with. you were a member when that was discussed in great detail in a thread.

With everyone with cell phone videos, the days of tossing anyone in paddy wagons is over.

Perhaps you can't but it looks pretty obvious he's not happy about the officer's actions.

 

[Ridgeman08]

You can tell by Chief Blair's original reaction to the video he thinks that there was no reason for this kid to be shot and killed by this officer.

Police by and large in North America are out of control. They are not peace officers or guardians of both the law and society, but bullies hiding behind a badge and a gun. Poorly trained and supervised, more interested in writing tickets or catching you on your cell phone than protecting society and serving the public good. They have more in common with the crooks they chase than you and I.

You can see from the video that no other officer had their gun drawn until he started shooting, there was a female officer there who was closer to the front steps and both of her hands were on her gun belt.

Toronto is not a war zone, police do not put their lives on the line everyday they put on their uniforms. They are in less danger than the guy from the CAA who tows disabled cars off the highway. He does take his life in his hands every time he hooks up a car.

When COPS used to walk a beat and go into bars to toss drunks into the Paddy Wagon, they knew how to handle themselves and some punk with a knife or a broken bottle. Not now, different mind set and both physically and mentally unable to handle a situation without drawing a gun. And as we see in this case over reacting.

In this age of cell phone cameras, we the public get to see just how heroic some of our police, ambulance and fire fighters are, and how pathetic. They're human and make mistakes, but their mistakes cost lives.

The police need better and repeated training in close quarter combat using both lethal and non lethal methods in bringing a situation under control. Issue better body armour to provide protection against edged weapons as most of us don't have guns. Batons, shotguns with bean bags, flash bang grenades, hell even old fashioned stink bombs.

As for the street cars, I believe there are switches on the outside to open and close the doors keeping a perp inside. Also in the future it should be policy to kill power to the overhead wires so the car can move.

Finally every officer should be equipped with full audio and video equipment so we can see what happened from the perspective of all of the officers there. Possibly something like google glasses to make sure that there can be no cover ups.

Actually in the videos I've seen, no less than 3 officers had guns drawn, and all the others had hands on their weapons, while still holstered.

 

[Aardvark154]

He sure looks guilty for the last six shots but we don't have the whole story.

This is an important and often overlooked point. A shooting may well be justified, but depending upon the circumstances later in the course of events become a criminal homicide.

 

[hapkido]

You take 100 cops with varying age and background and put them in the same situation what would be the outcome and approach? - Victim Dead or alive? This would directionally indicate if training and recruitment methods is effective. The problem is like any training if there is along lag time to apply it to reality it's not very effective. How many cops encounter dangerous conflict situation during their careers? I suspect not many.

It's easy to be a critic. But I'm sure that cop had adrenalin and emotion pumping through his veins and fear which in turn distorted his judgement and perception.

 

[nondescriptive]

.... The kid was backing off when he was shot. ..

I don't know what video you were watching, but from the video footage from the store, the kid stepped towards the officer, prompting the officer to shoot him.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

I don't know what video you were watching, but from the video footage from the store, the kid stepped towards the officer, prompting the officer to shoot him

Thats what I saw as well (in the 2nd video at least)

 

[black booty lover]

To me it just seems weird, there was such a long pause after the first 3 rounds. It was litterally like 7 seconds. How could he watch the kid drop, knowing he hit him, and then 7 seconds later say "I better unload the rest of my clip on this kid, I still see some movement". It wasn't like the kid was holding a gun. Much more patience should have been excersized after the kid dropped.

 

[blackrock13]

You really sound like you live off TV and fantasy. I would wager you are a shut in and on medication. I am serious. Your post reek of of a disjointed and scary fantasy world.

Don't bet the farm as you seriously suck big time at betting. Spend a little more time on this bb before you such an ass of yourself again, or not.

 

[blackrock13]

Perhaps you can't but it looks pretty obvious he's not happy about the officer's actions.

You've said basically the same thing, but if anything, he's simple sad to have to be at another briefing with the public, call it PR (a large part of his job), about another perceived tragic death involving the TPS.

 

[blackrock13]

To me it just seems weird, there was such a long pause after the first 3 rounds. It was litterally like 7 seconds. How could he watch the kid drop, knowing he hit him, and then 7 seconds later say "I better unload the rest of my clip on this kid, I still see some movement". It wasn't like the kid was holding a gun. Much more patience should have been excersized after the kid dropped.

Really? Once more, at that time they no idea that he was not armed with anything else, but the knife.

 

[jimmylikes]

Toronto cops are the biggest pussies who act like tough guys...

 

[trm]

A violent man with a knife is asking for a violent response.