So, am I a Sexual Harasser?
- Thread starter kkelso
- Start date
It all boils down to consent and how clear that consent is. Scenario 3 may very well result in you having to pay significant legal fees, if she says I felt I couldn't say no, even if you avoid being convicted.*
As has already been mentioned all expose you to significant risk of civil liability.
* A problem with hypotheticals such as these is that we are given case facts ("a consensual sexual relationship" or "offered sexual favors") that in the real world would likely be in dispute and normally the way such disputes are resolved is at trial.
When you join a company they usually make you watch a video or slide show on sexual harassment. The premise always seems to involve someone who has influence over the other making an inappropriate comment or touching the other person. So I'm not sure if this falls under harassment because sex took place. Arguably it falls under assault.
We do not have the other person's side so we will take the OP at his word but there is the possibility the ladies felt pressure to consent since in 3/4 cases the OP has power/influence.
While it's not against the law (and usually not against company policy) to engage in relationships with subordinates, I think most companies require you to notify them. And I think the most important thing is that sex should not be requested as "payment" for favoritism or advancement.
Now, let's assume it was all mutual and the ladies were the ones that initiated. Number 1 and 3 are OK (if reported) but inadvisable because the OP's reputation is questionable. If someone finds out and reports it, the question will be raised as to whether he has shown favoritism or overstepped in some way to help the person. Number 2 is forgivable - he's an ass hole but it takes two to tango. The other party bears some guilt as she was using sex to influence the hiring decision. #4 isn't bad at all. It's like any two people who work at a large company and don't have any connection.
I think you'd have a hard time getting the OP on anything except poor judgement.
We do not have the other person's side so we will take the OP at his word but there is the possibility the ladies felt pressure to consent since in 3/4 cases the OP has power/influence.
While it's not against the law (and usually not against company policy) to engage in relationships with subordinates, I think most companies require you to notify them. And I think the most important thing is that sex should not be requested as "payment" for favoritism or advancement.
Now, let's assume it was all mutual and the ladies were the ones that initiated. Number 1 and 3 are OK (if reported) but inadvisable because the OP's reputation is questionable. If someone finds out and reports it, the question will be raised as to whether he has shown favoritism or overstepped in some way to help the person. Number 2 is forgivable - he's an ass hole but it takes two to tango. The other party bears some guilt as she was using sex to influence the hiring decision. #4 isn't bad at all. It's like any two people who work at a large company and don't have any connection.
I think you'd have a hard time getting the OP on anything except poor judgement.
Given all the training today and the fact that companies come down hard, I think it would be difficult, at least in larger companies, for superiors to harass subordinates and get away with it. I think most incidents take place at smaller organizations where the boss might be the owner or there isn't a properly organized HR department with standardized processes.
If any person sleeps with their boss and no real feelings exist, I would say that person devalues themselves as an employee. Maybe one would be OK with it, but I would always wonder if I'm a valued for my skills / work or something else. I'm not sure but usually if two people want to enter into a relationship, the standard course of action is to break the influence relationship. Easy in some cases but difficult in others.
Even in a world where you're NOT guilty just for being a man, the stories just show poor judgement, period. One, maybe two strikes might have been allowed. That's why I asked if he was small company owner, or maybe the President. Any medium to large org, he'd likely be long gone - simply because of his poor judgement. No way you could keep 4 such flings secret, especially if he was dealing with a large sales force where 28 year olds can become head of sales. Certainly no sales department I've ever seen would miss anything like this 4 times. Even in the so called old days, he'd have gained some high fives if she was a babe but would have damaged his credibility as a manager as well as the women's reputations and there would be all sorts of whispers and water cooler talk. All negative for productivity. Maybe he worked in a company that had a culture that condoned this?
He's definitely up there. Head of sales reports to him so he'd be a VP, GM, the owner. Definitely not the head of HR!
He's indicated this has happened over a long career, and didn't say it all happened at the same company.
That's right. If one of them comes out of the woodwork alleging that any of it was not consensual, the OP is going to down in flames.
OP, are you able to sleep at night comfortably knowing that charges of sexual assault lurk just around the corner?
Have to say that in many years of owning a business I have never diddled the staff and have been tough on those in my employ who did.
That said, applying 2017 standards to 1990 actions is just stupid imo.
Most interesting situation I came across was a married female staffer who told me she didn't like the attention (anymore!) she was getting from a married male staffer. Turns out they had been banging for years. I told him to knock it off only to find her a week later fawning over a new male employee. When I told her to stop she got quite annoyed saying it was okay for women to do such things. She quit within weeks screamimg how she was going to sue me for embarrassing her.
That said, applying 2017 standards to 1990 actions is just stupid imo.
Most interesting situation I came across was a married female staffer who told me she didn't like the attention (anymore!) she was getting from a married male staffer. Turns out they had been banging for years. I told him to knock it off only to find her a week later fawning over a new male employee. When I told her to stop she got quite annoyed saying it was okay for women to do such things. She quit within weeks screamimg how she was going to sue me for embarrassing her.
Getting there.
My female friends all complain that men don't approach them and are no longer aggressive. Wonder why.
It is now becoming standard that there is zero tolerance for any amorous behaviour in the workplace consensual or not. The litigation and social media pressure are not something that any company wants. Nobody should have be subjected to workplace sexual harassment.
Let me see:
1. Had sex with a young lady when I was her supervisor. After two months of phenomenal sex (young lady was truly a gamer--open to just about anything, even a threesome with her best friend) we moved in together. One day enroute to work (we drove separate cars), I thought I spotted a co-worker that saw us leave together. While we drove separately to work, many folks we worked with lived in the same neighborhood. After sweating it out for two days, I told my immediate supervisor. I heard swear words from that woman's mouth I never knew existed. She said "paperwork" was going to be filed to document the relationship. Luckily, I was working behind the scenes and was able to get a transfer to another location before she completed the report (whew!!).
2. Ah, the naughty professor. I taught as adjunct faculty for over 20 years at several BIG 10 schools. I would be lying if I didn't say a tryst or two happened--but AFTER grades had already been submitted. Those involved knew that, and besides, these were smart coeds, i.e., they already had earned their A with their brains and not on their backs, or with their oral skills--and several had excellent "oral communication" skills and took dick-tation well. One of the best was a 5'10" fair skin redhead with legs for days (along with proportional breasts). I loved when she said "give it to me daddy" (no psycho babble please).
3. The human resource officer that hired me at another place I worked. I didn't know that she was going through a messy divorce. She was a very cool customer. But one day, the stars aligned, we met after work, and the rest is history. Truly a passionate woman that just wanted to fuck.
I'll leave it to TERB members to say whether or not I fit the role of sexual harasser...
1. Had sex with a young lady when I was her supervisor. After two months of phenomenal sex (young lady was truly a gamer--open to just about anything, even a threesome with her best friend) we moved in together. One day enroute to work (we drove separate cars), I thought I spotted a co-worker that saw us leave together. While we drove separately to work, many folks we worked with lived in the same neighborhood. After sweating it out for two days, I told my immediate supervisor. I heard swear words from that woman's mouth I never knew existed. She said "paperwork" was going to be filed to document the relationship. Luckily, I was working behind the scenes and was able to get a transfer to another location before she completed the report (whew!!).
2. Ah, the naughty professor. I taught as adjunct faculty for over 20 years at several BIG 10 schools. I would be lying if I didn't say a tryst or two happened--but AFTER grades had already been submitted. Those involved knew that, and besides, these were smart coeds, i.e., they already had earned their A with their brains and not on their backs, or with their oral skills--and several had excellent "oral communication" skills and took dick-tation well. One of the best was a 5'10" fair skin redhead with legs for days (along with proportional breasts). I loved when she said "give it to me daddy" (no psycho babble please).
3. The human resource officer that hired me at another place I worked. I didn't know that she was going through a messy divorce. She was a very cool customer. But one day, the stars aligned, we met after work, and the rest is history. Truly a passionate woman that just wanted to fuck.
I'll leave it to TERB members to say whether or not I fit the role of sexual harasser...
If you don't consider that a bona-fide conflict, you honestly shouldn't be in a management or hiring role.
I voted you're an asshole, a big one !!!
If a crime was to be considered, it would be in case #2.
#2
You took advantage of the girl.
You said she is still friendly with you to this day... But I'm ready to bet you never told her you were going to hire her regardless...
If you did, please tell us her reaction.
#4
I understand that business is business, and can't blame you for only hiring qualified employees, but geez, that must have hurt her feelings... One reason why business should never be mixed with sex, love or friendship...
Care to say how she reacted?
Did you tell her the real reason behind the decision or just made something up? What did she do when you admitted?
Thanks for the thoughtful response. To answer your questions:
On #2, I did tell her that I was going to hire her anyway, shortly after she started in the new job but several weeks before she stopped sleeping with me. Her reaction was that she giggled, I wonder if she believed me.
On #4 there was no reason to "make something up", it was very clear that she was in no way experienced enough for the role she wanted. There was nothing for me to admit as in that case I didn't even break HR policy.
KK
True enough, for all we know I could be making all of this up. But for purposes of the discussion we should assume (as I fully believe) that all of these encounters were consensual. However, in the case of #2 there was clearly an expectation of advancement on the part of the lady.
KK
For #1 it was a function of long, hard hours together over a period of time, very gradual. #2 was just a late night in the office after a stressful day.
#4 was the most interesting, and the most recent. After getting to know me at work she went out of her way to contact me via my personal social media, and made a point of saying "this has nothing to do with work", knowing that I would not have responded otherwise.
KK
Sounds like you've lived in the corporate world?
The scenarios would have a very different flavor if I added the year they occurred, my title, and the company. Of course I decline to do that for purposes of privacy.
In the case of the 28 year old head of sales, it was with an aggressively growing sales organization, almost a start-up. At the time I was running the regional office and she was the head of sales. There were probably 20 people in the office and other than me the average age was maybe 30.
KK
Agreed on all points.
Let's say that in scenarios 1, 2, and 4 significant evidence exists in the form of digital communication that supports the assertion that these were consensual encounters initiated by the other person. As for #2 no evidence exists as it was too long ago for digital, and the incident was never discussed between us again.
KK
Bingo. And this perception of conflict pre-dates any of the current day microscopic examination of every indiscretion. Anyway, as I said earlier - there's a lot in the OP that doesn't make sense or indicates a company that's too small to have any sort of defined organization (in which case the OP's power would be simply the power of hiring/firing for that particular company, NOT the ability to affect somebody's career) so possibly not unlawful harassment even by today's standards - just recurring bad judgement about potential conflict. The guy's just fooling himself if he thinks he can fuck a subordinate who is also in a management position and still be impartial enough to judge performance from a 100% company perspective.
Quite right that what I've shared, if it occurred at all, happened at different companies and at very different points in my career. I work, and have worked in industries where moving companies every 3-5 years is the norm. None of this transpired at any company I've owned, but mid to senior level management.
KK
Most people can't but some people can remain impartial when judging, myself included. How you handle something bad is the issue. Oddly enough it's similar to SP's. You see an SP, she's really nice, but has some BO. You could out her on Terb, you could complain to her agency, you could message her after, or you can tell her to her face. Same with a subordinate. Do you out her for a mistake, deal with it privately, cover it up, etc. The relationship may get you to do whatever to avoid upsetting her or causing her a problem, something you wouldn't normally do for a normal colleague who made a mistake.
