star article on holistic massage parlors

[slowandeasy]

Dude, you know nothing about me so why make asumptions? Right?
I did not saying anything about the legit message places in this city. What I do have issue with is these "holistic" places. They say they are holistic but have nothing to do with it. Legit MP places pay the fees and run proper operations while these guys front as something else and because of tis are a more shady operation resulting in unsafe conditions for all. Nothing is invested in them - have u driven by or ben in onecof them ? The places are (for the most part) filthy. Don't think and assume that these non holistic holistic places for a minute (the majority of them) are shady operations. Don't be so naive to think otherwise.

Dude... even if I knew you, i might still know nothing about you... so why bother right?

I agree that the legit places pay the fee and run decent operations. However, the city allows these holistic places to exist and even provide them with licenses to operate, so they operate.... It's up to the city to police them or shut them down. The fact of the matter is that the demand for the service exists, and far exceeds the supply of Legit MPs, and that is what drives these MPs.

It's crazy for the city to continue to charge the Legit 25 MPs such an exhorbitant amount of money while charging the holistic centers so little. If I was an owner of the legit MPs, I would be pissed too. So which one of the 25 legit MPs do you own?

I have been to many of the non-legit MPs... some I have found to be extremely dirty, but I have never felt unsafe... I know of some MPs that bring the girls in to work from overseas, and I am sure that there are some that are being forced into the industry criminals. But overall, my experience has been positive.

Do not believe that if the city shut down all the holistic centers, the problem would be solved... it would simply go underground and that might create an even bigger problem for everyone...

Good luck with your crusade however...

 

[davo53]

what is the alternative?

some good points on this thread...first of all the "expose" journalism is pretty lazy..with the government of canada stealing our money for the last 10 (or more) years it was the auditor general who brought it to light..where was the Star then?? sure hand jobs are offered at massage parlours...not a big journalistic breakthrough in my opionion...2nd point that has already been made is the fact that the Star profits with the ads in the Star and Eye....3rd point is that these places take street prostitution off the streets...isn't that a good thing? tell me who is being harmed by a 2nd floor strip mall operation as compared with street hookers blowing guys in alleyways and tossing cum filled condoms into people's back yards.....massage parlours serve a societal purpose in a pretty unobtrusive way.....the other point i agree with is the two tiers of licenses are a problem..the 25 body rub licenses pretty much force new operators to elbow into the holistic territory, which is a problem for non sexual operators in that area....why not just legalize pay-for-hand-jobs, gather in 10K for each one to help pay for things the city needs and let the police forget about this crap and work on real crime....IMHO!

 

[xxxseer]

So which one of the 25 legit MPs do you own?

None. Zero. Nada.

But overall, my experience has been positive.

Of course it has. you think they are going to tell you of the problems?

 

[Hugh G. Rekshun]

Of the three MPs inside the City of Toronto proper (not Brampton, Vaughan, etc.) that I can recall visiting in the last two years, the one that proudly proclaimed the fact that it was licensed on the front page of its web site is the only one of the three that gets consistently branded a dump by everyone on Terb.

 

[burlboy]

Double Speak

Even as the Star "informs" the public about the evils of the Holistic massage racked their classiffied section is full ads for these places

 

[slowandeasy]

Forgot to mention that I have become close to a number of owners of various MPs, mostly the small holistic chinese ones.. usually owned by one of the girls that worked there... helped a number of them out to understand how to advertise etc...

Attended alot of their b-day parties and events for their families... what I found was alot of people who were just struggling to make a living.. some who were just greedy, and some who just did not give a fuck... they were just like the general population...

I even helped a couple of girls get out of the industry and stay out of the industry....

So yes, I know of their problems, and of the three that I was close to none were involved in organized crime, exploiting illegal workers, unsafe, or unclean..

 

[moretowels]

"Even if you don't like The Star, do they say anything in this story that isn't true?

"How much longer can we afford to wait?" says Thompson (Ward 37, Scarborough Centre). "This place is next to a school. I've got parents who walk their kids to school who have been propositioned by clients of Ginger Wellness ... I fail to understand why the system is not working."

Sounds like a load of crap to me. Guys going to Ginger Wellness are propositioning moms walking their kids to school? Hey maybe it is true, but I have a hell of a hard time believing it. I have no doubt that Thompson said it, but it's just ridiculous.

 

[MarkII]

Couple of things to keep in mind.

First: This is a major atings period for media. Newspapers included. When the ratings (sweeps or circulation counts) are on..they trot out the Massage Parlour and Prostitution stories like clockwork. Wasy targets as they're everywhere. They're also everywhere becausd there is a market.

* There is also a disturbing side story to this on how many womne working in the "Oriental" establishments actually want to be there, or are forced to be there. Another post for that question.

Second: This time the story has been approached from a legitimate complaint aspect. If the City of Toronto supplied a Lisence then it could be found to be condoning the activities. Remember legal Beagles drive politics with "what if's?". This time there may just be some back peddling from City council. They may well revist the Holistic Lisence for the simple reason some consider them to fit the "Brothel" section of the criminal code.

Are they Brothels in the widely accepted sense, I say no. But a judge under political pressure might say yes.

Look for more and more crackdowns on Massage Parlours over the coming days and weeks. We have a new Police Chief in Toronto and he cannot ignore the largest daily Newspaper running a story on how Holistic lisences = Brothel.

Beware over the next while..if you visit a MP...you could be on the News at 5:30.

Media during ratings can drive public opinion quite strongly. Too bad the same media isn't interested in the same quality of coverage when ratings are not on.

Sidenote: Canadian Media follows the same listener/viewer/reader rating periods as the US total markets due to the duplication of product, also called simulcast or in print Syndicated columnists. Since the US brings out the new shows...the best journalism during these periods the ratings onaudience size whether radio, TV or newspaper is conducted at the same time for equality. Advertisers buy in Canada based on the simulcast theory. Desperate Housewives is on ABC..but no matter where you watch in Canada..it's CTV that gets the Canadian rating share.

 

[Gord's Bro]

Obviously something is out of wack (no pun intended) here.

In mentioning the explict advertising, The Star articles could easily have mentioned how much money explicit ads in both its own paper and The Eye (which it has some ownership in) bring in. If the implication is that the the licencing process has resulted in illegal activity, then the Star itself is guilty of (enabling) communication for the purposes of prostitution.

As to the 25 body rub licences, all they appear to permit is that -- rubbing of body parts -- not masturbation.

What we have now just isn't working. Since this is an adult problem best solution might be to look at it as adults -- and recognize that it won't go away so we have to regulate or licenece it in some sensible (???) way.

Now that's the question The Star, with it's bleeding heart social approach (which I tend to agree with most of the time) should focus on.

IMHO

Gord's Bro.

 

[RogerRabbit]

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...le&cid=1115590209641&call_pageid=968332188492

'What really goes on at the 'spa' on Bay Street
City licenses more than 200 sex dens
Problem costs $2.5 million a year
DALE BRAZAO AND ROBERT CRIBB
STAFF REPORTERS

Just a few blocks from city hall, Health International Spa overlooks Toronto's financial district from a lavishly appointed Bay St. office filled with young, attractive and nearly naked women.
It's the subject of gossip in downtown office towers where Health International has earned a reputation as a sexual oasis that seems to draw a steady parade of suited male clients to its dark oak-panel doors.
What happens inside the private rooms of this city-licensed holistic centre is part of a swirling debate over the city's approach to regulating sex.
Health International is licensed to offer such alternative therapies as shiatsu and reflexology. A Toronto Star investigation found that its attendants also offer topless and nude massage, masturbation, "nude reverses" (in which clients massage a naked attendant) and "body slides" (in which a naked attendant rubs herself over the naked body of her client).
A second city-licensed holistic centre owned by the same man — Amro Eleish — also offered sexual services when an undercover reporter visited recently.
Eleish said he has no knowledge of any illegal services being offered in his holistic centres.
"We have people monitoring every session on several occasions," the 35-year-old entrepreneur said in a recent interview. "There are peepholes in there. There are cameras everywhere. There's absolutely nothing sexual in our places.... We abide by all the rules, all the regulations governing holistic massage."...'

They are asking for input:

Sex & City Hall
More than 200 holistic health centres licensed by the City of Toronto actually operate as brothels, a Toronto Star investigation has found. What should city hall do about it?

Note: Please fill in all fields. Longer comments may be edited for length.

http://www.thestar.com/cgi-bin/star...age=/Forms/speak_out/050506_cityhall_sex.html

 

[Meister]

"There are peepholes in there. There are cameras everywhere.

Cameras? Great, I feel really safe now.

 

[youngent]

They are asking for input:

Sex & City Hall
More than 200 holistic health centres licensed by the City of Toronto actually operate as brothels, a Toronto Star investigation has found. What should city hall do about it?

Note: Please fill in all fields. Longer comments may be edited for length.

http://www.thestar.com/cgi-bin/star...age=/Forms/speak_out/050506_cityhall_sex.html

Is anyone gonna actually use their 'real names' and write comments in defense of these places (and (possibly implicating oneself on the use of their regular services) ?

 

[scrooge]

Or better yet, did these Star idiots expect the owner to come out and said, "yeah, we offer anything and everything from topless to NR?????"

What a bunch of morons.

 

[wumpscut]

Is anyone gonna actually use their 'real names' and write comments in defense of these places (and (possibly implicating oneself on the use of their regular services) ?

I did use my first name and rather than say I use any services I simply pointed out the hypocricy of taking the M.P.'s money to advertise while they slam the massage parlours at the same time. But no letters in todays star pointing that fact out, I'll bet they don't publish any that make that point.

 

[shinjitsu]

In the blurb at the side of the article "GETTING THE STORY" ...

"In recent weeks the reporters visited six holistic centres. In each case, the attendant offered sex. The reporters declined and departed."

These guys are either ...
a. Unbelievable investigators, able to search and find MPAs who provide 'sex'. Maybe guys looking for mileage should call or email them?
b. Never had 'sex' before and consider being looked at by a female as being offered 'sex'.
c. Outright liars.

 

[slowandeasy]

In the blurb at the side of the article "GETTING THE STORY" ...

"In recent weeks the reporters visited six holistic centres. In each case, the attendant offered sex. The reporters declined and departed."

These guys are either ...
a. Unbelievable investigators, able to search and find MPAs who provide 'sex'. Maybe guys looking for mileage should call or email them?
b. Never had 'sex' before and consider being looked at by a female as being offered 'sex'.
c. Outright liars.

I believe that they are defining "sex" to mean a sexual act...such as a handjob, bj etc.. not necessarily intercourse...

I guess these guys missed the Clinton Definition. I believe that if the Clinton Definition is good enough for a grand jury, it's good enough for me...

 

[phelan]

^^ agreed. I think their terminology is a little more broader when they used the term "sex" in the article. Treat it more like "sexual act".

 

[HaywoodJabloemy]

And remember, there is no law that says hand jobs are okay in a massage parlour. It seems to be what a lot of people mistakenly believe.

 

[Svend]

Don't forget that people laughed and rolled their eyes at Clinton's definitions. Remember he even steered his way around the simple term "is".
For me, any release is a sexual act and any buildup to it is where the shades of grey are involved.

 

[RogerRabbit]

"They're scared of looking like they're supporting prostitution."

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...67&t=TS_Home&DPL=IvsNDS/7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes

Councillor Mark Grimes admits that licensing illicit holistic operations amounts to promoting prostitution.
"Basically it's a smoke and mirrors for a brothel, as far as I'm concerned. I don't want them anywhere in my ward or anywhere in the city," said Grimes (Ward 6, Etobicoke-Lakeshore).
Councillors have turned to city staff for a solution. And they in turn are looking at the experience of Markham.
Unlike in Toronto, where holistic operators and practitioners need only show evidence of completing a course in a field of holistic therapy, new bylaws in Markham force holistic operators to be members of a professional self-regulatory body.
That helps distinguish between legitimate practitioners and sex workers. Since adopting the tougher standards, the city has licensed only five new holistics.
Legitimate practitioners in Toronto want a similar system.
"Our reputation is being maligned," said David Pinto, a polarity therapy specialist.
Pinto, along with several other registered practitioners interviewed by the Star, also wants the city to lift a cap on body-rub parlour licences that currently sits at 25.
Lifting it would allow businesses offering erotic massage services to register under licences that more accurately reflect their services, Pinto said.
He has taken the idea to councillors, but few are willing to be seen advocating it, he said.
"They're scared of looking like they're supporting prostitution."