State of The Union Speech

TravellingGuy

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JeremytheWicked said:
TRAVELLINGGUY - The strike would be against terrorists and their groups - not whole countries. Do I consider Hussein to be a terrorist in this way - no. He was not a threat to the U.S. in the way I am speaking, unless POTUS knew (or thought he knew) more than us.

The strike at Iraq was not technically against terror in my opinion. The strike against Afghanistan however was.
I supported the war in Afghanistan, so yes I agree, thats a war on terrorism, but Iraq most certainly is not, and regardless of wether it is better with Saddam gone, the fact is the POTUS used his influence and power to topple a leader either based on bad information or another agenda that was not his premise for going to war, I'm still waiting to see if they find any WMD, but seriously where could it all go? Now if you accept the fact that the POTUS and his adminstration did in fact mislead his public, even though the results are good, you can no longer trust what they tell you to be the truth.

Striking out at the terrorists and groups, not the whole country, right so its a pre-emptive strike against Bush and his administration, not necessarily anything against the rest of the perfectly fine country, most of whom didn't vote for Bush anyway so they won't mind.

POTUS and all his great intelligence agents apparently didn't and still don't know anything.

I'm not a supporter of terrorism, although I don't necessarily believe that wars and violence are the way to end it, its going to take a lot more communication and co-operation, not a rogue country deciding the fate of the world.
 

JeremytheWicked

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It sounds like we BASICALLY agree on the particulars, it's just W's impetus for making war on Iraq that we differ.

I have to agree with you, bbking. It seems like the spin doctors like to keep the fear meter in the red. Be afraid of the evil abroad, and you don't pay too much attention to the evil here.
 

Ickabod

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TravellingGuy said:
Who gave the Presidante of the US , or even the US at all the right to decide who to pre-emptively strike?
Exactly. Imagine a scenario where an atomic bomb goes off in some American city. Then a phone call gets placed to the President with the message "We did it once to prove we can. It'll be the last one as long as you back off but if you ever come after us it'll happen 2 more times. Your friend, Kim Jong Il acting pre-emptively". All justified by Mr Bush.
 

woohoo

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TravellingGuy said:
Beside the fact that Saddam's WMD were a threat to the immediate vicinity, not to the USA on the other side of the world. Although Saddam was a bad man, a bad ruler, and killed lots of people, he has never been convicted of being a Terrorist against the united states. Its interesting how Bush and his lackies (yourself included) try to pray on the fear and anger that people have towards the Terrorists of the world to turn us also against other people (who are not terrorists).
yknow until pearl harbour that is exactly what everyone in the usa was saying about a guy named adolf hitler "ahh he is on the other side of the atlantic it doesnt concern us here in the usa" what do you think would have happened if the usa did not declare war in 1941? england was in the middle of being bombed to shit and the allies were losing on every front. the entry into the war by the usa was pivotal to the allies winning the war and had the usa not been bombed and continued their non-interference the german atomic program at peenemunde might have given the germans the bomb and effectively have won the war in europe and given the germans the ultimate trump card -- in 1944-45 there were plans for a nazi nuclear attack on new york (http://www.luft46.com/armament/abomb.html) . lucky for us the japanese decided to bomb pearl harbour and as Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto said "I fear that we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible
resolve" - December 7th, 1941
hmm seems to me that it was a good thing that the usa was filled with so much resolve to take care of imperialistic japan and their lunatic ally hitler who was only a "local problem" in europe.
energizerbunny wrote
"But then Dubya only cares about the employers not the employees. The employers can make more money that way, or at least until the masses can no longer consume the products because they don't have jobs to buy them. Bush knows that he can win the masses with fear and the big corporations with money"
George W. Bush has:
- increased federal spending on education by 60.8 percent;
- increased federal spending on labor by 56 percent;
- increased federal spending on the interior by 23.4 percent;
- increased federal spending on defense by 27.6 percent.
ya he definitely doesnt care about the labour which is why he increased federal spending on it by 56%
lets also not forget that he signed the farm bill, which was a non-kosher piñata filled with enough pork to bend space and time;

and pushed through a Medicare plan which starts with a price tag of $400 billion but will — according to every expert who studies the issue — go up a gazillion-bajillion dollars over the next decade
oh he also has:
- got more people working for the federal government since the end of the Cold War; (he created a massive dept of homeland security lets not forget that)
- not vetoed a single spending — or any other bill, and he has no intention of eliminating a single department
And that's all before Bush went into reelection mode. Read Tuesday's lead editorial in the Wall Street Journal, and you'll find that this is one of the spendiest (yes, that's right, "spendiest") president in American history, second only to LBJ."
(lots of this was taken from various sources around the net)

robert frost said it best when he said "a liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel"
 

onthebottom

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Yawn

Oh good, a Bush bashing thread on Iraq with no origional points. Sorry I started it.

OTB
 

onthebottom

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Re: Re: Yawn

bbking said:
I don't know what your saying here, but their have been a few good ideason this thread. And since when is a sitting President not open for abuse - only if he is Republican?


bbk
Fair enough but there is just so much rapidity around people's arguments that it gets boring. No one has mentioned the documenting of "guest workers" for example or the use of "faith based" initiatives. Perhaps these are domestic issues that Canadian board members don't care about.

My view is that you believe what you believe about American foreign policy and the war in Iraq - the chance of changing my mind, or *d*'s mind is remote at best.

OTB
 

zydeco

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I'm too lazy to read through this entire thread - so forgive me if this has been discussed previoulsy - but did anyone else find the President's caution to pro sports owners, athletes, coaches etc. to be out of place for a State of the Union speech? It just seems that with a very limited period of time to address the nation (approx 1 hr) and virtually unlimited more important issues competing for inclusion - this was a bit odd.
 

Ickabod

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woohoo said:
yknow until pearl harbour that is exactly what everyone in the usa was saying about a guy named adolf hitler "ahh he is on the other side of the atlantic it doesnt concern us here in the usa" what do you think would have happened if the usa did not declare war in 1941?
Saddam Hussein was no more an Adolf Hitler than George Bush is. More an Idi Amin if we're gonna make comparisons. At least relative to the level of military might at their disposal.
 

Ickabod

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Re: Re: Re: Yawn

onthebottom said:
My view is that you believe what you believe about American foreign policy and the war in Iraq - the chance of changing my mind, or *d*'s mind is remote at best.

OTB
Believe it or not OTB, i was as pro war as you are a year and a half ago. Frankly, Bush lost me when he started lying about it. Sorry, you don't lie people into war. If you have a valid case, you present it. If you don't have a valid case, you make one up. Very simple. Over 500 Americans are dead. Thousands of Americans now no longer have a mother or father.....son or daughter. Thousands of legs, arms, and eyes are no longer useful to their owners. $150 billion is spent. Al Qaida now has a built in recruiting tool given the thousands of innocent Iraqis the Great Satan has now killed. All for reasons that Bush couldn't be honest about.

Iraq is now on it's way to nothing but a Civil War. And the theory that this will lead to a middle eastern peace that will make us safer in the long run? We were told Iraq had hundreds of tons of weapons, we were told Iraq's oil would pay for the reconstruction, and we were told Iraq would greet us with open arms (when the 2nd most hated person kills the 1st most hated person, it only elevates #2 to #1) so i can't see why the "make us safer" theory should be any more credible. "Weapons of mass destruction related program activities". Are you kidding me? Meanwhile, the country that had it's hands all over 9/11, probably as complicit as Afghanistan, is walking around with apparent Presidential immunity.
 

Ickabod

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zydeco said:
I'm too lazy to read through this entire thread - so forgive me if this has been discussed previoulsy - but did anyone else find the President's caution to pro sports owners, athletes, coaches etc. to be out of place for a State of the Union speech? It just seems that with a very limited period of time to address the nation (approx 1 hr) and virtually unlimited more important issues competing for inclusion - this was a bit odd.
He probably figured he should at least say SOMETHING truthful.
 
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