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The Discussion That Anti-Zionism is Not Anti-Semitism

mandrill

monkey
Aug 23, 2001
82,964
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Why would the protesters care about helping the Dems?
That's not what they are thinking about.
You misunderstood my post. Please re read it.
The Law & Order narrative was coming no matter what the students did, though.
Even if they left quietly on day 1, there would have been bragging about how "they didn't let it get out of hand like it did in New York".
Except it wouldn't have stayed in the news cycle long enough to register.
 

mandrill

monkey
Aug 23, 2001
82,964
116,075
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Them being there doesn't bother me. The anti-semitic slogans and cheering of violence though does impact the safety and security of other students though.
They have to move at some point. They are creating disruption. That's why all campuses are ordering them to vacate.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
99,931
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So people who disagree with you deserve to be harassed and face death threats just like the idiot at Columbia. Nice.
No, just people who back genocide like nazis.

The actual UN, the ones with power, demanded Israel and Hamas accept a ceasefire for Ramadan and immediately release their hostages.

In todays news, world leaders are practically begging Hamas to accept Israel's latest ceasefire offer.
Fixed your post for accuracy.
In today's news Blinken says its very generous for Israel to offer to stop killing Palestinians for 40 days.

Bring on the sanctions.



 

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
53,934
11,818
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Toronto
Fixed your post for accuracy.
In today's news Blinken says its very generous for Israel to offer to stop killing Palestinians for 40 days.
It sounds like you are not happy about saving lives for 40 days.

I think that reinforces what your objectives actually are.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
99,931
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Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
36,677
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Them being there doesn't bother me. The anti-semitic slogans and cheering of violence though does impact the safety and security of other students though.
One of the problems is there are very clearly multiple groups at the protests.
I know people who are quite pro-Palestine who won't go near these protests as long as groups like SPJ are leaders.

There is also the simple fact that the energy driving these protests for the students is only tangentially about this conflict.
Lots of the student protests are mixed in with local issues on those student campuses. (This always happens.)

Lots of the protesters at the places getting big media coverage aren't going to be students anymore either, because it is a thing getting large media coverage and so they are there for those reasons.

These things get complicated.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
36,677
72,938
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You misunderstood my post. Please re read it.
Can't make head or tails of it, then.
Who do you think was supposed to help the Dems and failed?

Except it wouldn't have stayed in the news cycle long enough to register.
Oh, I agree about that.
The Universities cracking down really pushed it up the media ladder.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
36,677
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Why would it threaten peace talks?
Its not like Hamas has anything to do with the charges at the ICC.
Because if you believe Bibi is extending the war to preserve his own neck, then making it clear that stopping the war doesn't help him any doesn't incentivize him to stop the war.

Or just the basic thing that when you are trying to negotiate something, every major change in the situation sets negotiations back.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
99,931
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Because if you believe Bibi is extending the war to preserve his own neck, then making it clear that stopping the war doesn't help him any doesn't incentivize him to stop the war.

Or just the basic thing that when you are trying to negotiate something, every major change in the situation sets negotiations back.
Its not stopping the war, its a 40 day pause to return the hostages then a return to the genocide.
On top of that it doesn't even have clauses about allowing enough food in to deal with the famine.

How much of the offer of a ceasefire is really due to pressure from Israeli protesters over returning the hostages?

 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
36,677
72,938
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Its not stopping the war, its a 40 day pause to return the hostages then a return to the genocide.
On top of that it doesn't even have clauses about allowing enough food in to deal with the famine.

How much of the offer of a ceasefire is really due to pressure from Israeli protesters over returning the hostages?

I have no idea how much the offer is due to internal pressure from Israeli protesters.
There are multiple groups with multiple agendas.

Many people just want a ceasefire, with the hope that a ceasefire means people don't die during that time and makes it harder to restart the killing.
Other people think a ceasefire is just a PR exercise and the killing will continue immediately afterwards so therefore what's the point in having even a temporary ceasefire - there is some other goal that must be achieved, whether it is a legal agreement on humanitarian aid or the creation of an entirely new political system.

Some think the hostages returning means the end of the campaign.
Others think the hostages are the only leverage that can eventually be used to stop the campaign in a settlement acceptable to both sides.
Others still think neither side actually cares about the hostages.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
99,931
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I have no idea how much the offer is due to internal pressure from Israeli protesters.
There are multiple groups with multiple agendas.

Many people just want a ceasefire, with the hope that a ceasefire means people don't die during that time and makes it harder to restart the killing.
Other people think a ceasefire is just a PR exercise and the killing will continue immediately afterwards so therefore what's the point in having even a temporary ceasefire - there is some other goal that must be achieved, whether it is a legal agreement on humanitarian aid or the creation of an entirely new political system.

Some think the hostages returning means the end of the campaign.
Others think the hostages are the only leverage that can eventually be used to stop the campaign in a settlement acceptable to both sides.
Others still think neither side actually cares about the hostages.
“Israel will under no circumstances agree to ending the war as part of a deal to free our hostages.”

Hopefully it just stops entirely with no more killing.

Israel has a ‘deliberate plan to kill children and women’: UN official

Figures from the UN agency for Palestinian refugees show 37 children in Gaza lose their mother every day. It’s being described as a “war on women”.
“In no war in recent history have we seen this appalling, deliberate targeted attack on women and children as we’ve seen in the war on Gaza,” said Reem al-Salem, the UN special rapporteur on women and girls.
She said Israel has been targeting Palestinian women for decades, but the current war shows zero consideration for their safety. “They are experiencing a full-blown genocide, they are being exterminated. There are few places in the world where we’ve seen something like this.”
Al-Salem noted nearly 15,000 children and 10,000 women have been killed in seven months of Israeli attacks. “If this is not a deliberate plan to kill children and women – the foundations of Palestinian life and society – then I don’t know what is really.”
 

Leimonis

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2020
10,356
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One of the problems is there are very clearly multiple groups at the protests.
I know people who are quite pro-Palestine who won't go near these protests as long as groups like SPJ are leaders.

There is also the simple fact that the energy driving these protests for the students is only tangentially about this conflict.
Lots of the student protests are mixed in with local issues on those student campuses. (This always happens.)

Lots of the protesters at the places getting big media coverage aren't going to be students anymore either, because it is a thing getting large media coverage and so they are there for those reasons.

These things get complicated.
I was just bicycling by UofT and saw a young woman wearing a keffiyeh and I still feel bad that I didn’t yell “heil hitler”
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
99,931
27,184
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So by that logic, giving up the hostages would be a no brainer, since it has no effect on the situation.
Sure it does, there are massive anti Netanyahu protests over the hostages.
And if they give them up Israel can bomb away without killing the rest of them, I think they've killed about 70 of the hostages so far.



How do you think things are going to magically "stop entirely", exactly?
How long do you think the genocide can continue?
Do you think Netanyahu will dare to do a Srebrenica on Rafah?
Do you think Biden will let the genocide run right through the election?

‘Negotiate now, resign later’: Israeli protesters demand action from PM

Several thousand people demonstrated in Tel Aviv in favour of a negotiated release of Israeli captives held in Gaza.
There was also loud criticism of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and calls for new elections. Protesters held banners and signs saying, “Negotiate now, resign later.”
The father of one of Israeli captive said the far-right government’s own survival seemed more important than the hostages. He called on the government to agree to a ceasefire in exchange for their return.
 
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