Walking onto the thin ice. This indeed poses a problem in some cross cultural relationships. Western men (at least most of us) are quite aware of no means no, you need active consent. When this bumps up against a woman from a culture where saying yes, or not playing hard to get means I'm a slut - the results can be a miserable relationship or marriage.
The Meaning and Understanding of The Word 'NO'...
- Thread starter ¤CANDYKISSES¤
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I can't believe that this even has to be posted here. There are many women who provide anal and CIM why book with one who doesn't do those services and attempt to bend or break the rules.
How does it possibly turn you on to have a lady disgusted by performing acts against their will? If that turns you on then you are no better than a rapist.
How does it possibly turn you on to have a lady disgusted by performing acts against their will? If that turns you on then you are no better than a rapist.
The ones that are "successful" with this trick must have very small dicks... actually and metaphorically...
Informed consent is always important. I live that rule to the capital R that an ex once told me to STFU and just start screwing because I'm fucking up the romance by all the double checking. 
Anyhow, the ladies should share teh name of the dick so he can be blacklisted.
Anyhow, the ladies should share teh name of the dick so he can be blacklisted.
The other week, I emailed Kayleigh about a possible Sunday rendezvous. She had plans but said she would get back to me. She did, but it was Monday (and been too busy to try to rebook). Does that mean Kayleigh said no to me?
ps: this is really a means to bump tiger talk off the air
ps: this is really a means to bump tiger talk off the air
Nothing is ever clear cut when it comes to sex. We might like it to be clear cut, but it isn't, and never will be. Sex is too tied up with very basic animal drives, the game playing is hard-wired into us.
The reality is that people communicate in non-verbal ways that are hard to write down into a criminal code.
If you did succeed in coming up with a clear cut rule people would intentionally play games with the rule itself.
At the end of the day all I can say is that anyone in an actual situation KNOWS whether the other person consents or not, whatever they are doing or saying, you KNOW.
She might be saying yes, but you might know it's because you have something over her and she's scared--that's rape. She might be saying no, but only because she's getting a kick out of watching your balls turn blue and flirting every which way from Sunday. That's a yes.
It's not simple, like relationships aren't simple, like cheating, dating, flirting, isn't simple.
- - -
That said it is a lot more clear cut when it's paid sex, the flirting/relationship part is not there, which simplifies it a lot, and if a provider says "I don't do anal" that isn't because she gets a kick out of teasing you like a girlfriend might.
LOL, I guess a real "GFE" would be where you pay and you spend the next hour toeing the line, she says no, you say really, she says not really, you push, explore, and don't even know whether you're actually going to get laid or just fool around a little. That would be a real GFE.
The reality is that people communicate in non-verbal ways that are hard to write down into a criminal code.
If you did succeed in coming up with a clear cut rule people would intentionally play games with the rule itself.
At the end of the day all I can say is that anyone in an actual situation KNOWS whether the other person consents or not, whatever they are doing or saying, you KNOW.
She might be saying yes, but you might know it's because you have something over her and she's scared--that's rape. She might be saying no, but only because she's getting a kick out of watching your balls turn blue and flirting every which way from Sunday. That's a yes.
It's not simple, like relationships aren't simple, like cheating, dating, flirting, isn't simple.
- - -
That said it is a lot more clear cut when it's paid sex, the flirting/relationship part is not there, which simplifies it a lot, and if a provider says "I don't do anal" that isn't because she gets a kick out of teasing you like a girlfriend might.
LOL, I guess a real "GFE" would be where you pay and you spend the next hour toeing the line, she says no, you say really, she says not really, you push, explore, and don't even know whether you're actually going to get laid or just fool around a little. That would be a real GFE.
But that 'yes' from a civi girl should still be considered a 'Holy No', if for no other reason that you might have a hard time explaining that devilish grin and the raw heat of the moment to a judge or an officer... Mind you if she wants to yell "Squeee!" and run about all nekkid, or to engage in some amateur wrestling I'm all in... Explaining "no really meant yes" to a person with a badge or a robe is a fools game, and relationships can go really bad... It's not a funny joke, IMHO. But we all have our own baggage.
I've never had an issue but I've had a couple of close male friends who I'd actually stick my neck out for, who have had frightening variations of 'when relationships go beyond bad'. (The first was over a break up where the woman falsely alleged assault and squatted in his place for months until his civil lawyer got her out and his criminal lawyer got him off, and the second was over a drunk repeat dorm romp that the guy didn't take seriously enough that resulted in some nasty allegations that never amounted to anything. The first guy is still recovering years later and the second guy had the semester from hell. Both are better people than me. There are some crazy / nasty people out there...)
Thank You
Thank you all for your support on this matter. I didn't expect the thread to take off the way it did, however am glad to see it!
I have read all of your replys to the subject at hand, however am not great with multi quoting (and am far to exhausted!) so I will just reply freely to what posts have stuck out in my mind most.
Thank you all for your support on this matter. I didn't expect the thread to take off the way it did, however am glad to see it!
I have read all of your replys to the subject at hand, however am not great with multi quoting (and am far to exhausted!) so I will just reply freely to what posts have stuck out in my mind most.
I agree with you that this is a lesson that should be taught to both genders.
Speaking for myself, when I'm interested in having a relationship, there is no attraction to playing cat and mouse. If I like you, yes there will be flirting, however I will let you know. If the feeling is mutual great! I'm not going to make you chase me or leave little hints here and there so you can put together the peices.
- The inability to say no, this is a topic I feel strongly about. I don't know why some people think that a woman (or man) is into you and consenting to having sex if they're passed out on a sofa,floor,bathtub etc. Where is the common sense? (Before this is quoted and countered, I would like to say that anyone who puts themselves in this position is also lacking common sense.)
- The Terb Member's Handle will be pm'd to the ladies just as soon as I recieve the proper spelling. I don't wish to name him publicly as I believe this is an issue that can be dealt with *behind closed doors* so long as the ladies are informed. I would also like to thank the Gents on Terb who do respect us and our boundaries, it is all of you who keep us eager to please...
I wish that threads like this could make a difference, but they don't.
The clients who treat the ladies with respect don't need to be told how to do so.
And the jerks who have no respect for a woman's limits don't care what other people say. They already know that their behavior is wrong. They just don't care, and they aren't going to listen to other guys telling them how to behave in a thread that they aren't even going to read.
The clients who treat the ladies with respect don't need to be told how to do so.
And the jerks who have no respect for a woman's limits don't care what other people say. They already know that their behavior is wrong. They just don't care, and they aren't going to listen to other guys telling them how to behave in a thread that they aren't even going to read.
I've got a bit of a problem with this term 'enthusiastic consent'....does that mean for sp's that show up and are disappointed with you the customer and when it comes down to doing the deed, you can tell she really just doesn't want to be there? As customers, do we say "hit the road" and forgo the $250.00 we've spent?
I know I ran into this situation with a couple of agency ladies and when I stopped the session and sent them on their way the agency flatly refused any sort of refund or compensation.
I mean, look at the review section. How many reviews are about ladies with a less than enthusiastic attitude during the session? Could all of those be considered assault?
Now we hope that the sp/customer dynamic is or should be clearer, it isn't always. In the OP it is obvious when an sp flatly says NO (in this context) that is the end of it.
In the reverse, there's been many times in past relationships where I have really wanted to fool around, and she didn't but she did so anyways and times where she wanted to fool around, I didn't, but did so anyways. Is that assault?
Now onto a more humorous look at it: if your gf or ??? harps on you about taking her shopping and you really don't want to go, but go anyways, what is THAT? I specifically remember times where I really wanted to go to the motorcycle show and the gf didn't, but went along with me anyways (and yeah, we had to hit sherway gardens afterwards lol)......
IN the college/drunk/passed out examples, yeah, if she is comatose that is obviously non-consensual but how many times have we guys encountered women who are blasted and do something they wouldn't normally do sober (then wake up the next day, regret what they've done, they play the assault card?). I mean there's that old saying "thank god for alcohol so ugly guys can get laid too".
I know I ran into this situation with a couple of agency ladies and when I stopped the session and sent them on their way the agency flatly refused any sort of refund or compensation.
I mean, look at the review section. How many reviews are about ladies with a less than enthusiastic attitude during the session? Could all of those be considered assault?
Now we hope that the sp/customer dynamic is or should be clearer, it isn't always. In the OP it is obvious when an sp flatly says NO (in this context) that is the end of it.
In the reverse, there's been many times in past relationships where I have really wanted to fool around, and she didn't but she did so anyways and times where she wanted to fool around, I didn't, but did so anyways. Is that assault?
Now onto a more humorous look at it: if your gf or ??? harps on you about taking her shopping and you really don't want to go, but go anyways, what is THAT? I specifically remember times where I really wanted to go to the motorcycle show and the gf didn't, but went along with me anyways (and yeah, we had to hit sherway gardens afterwards lol)......
IN the college/drunk/passed out examples, yeah, if she is comatose that is obviously non-consensual but how many times have we guys encountered women who are blasted and do something they wouldn't normally do sober (then wake up the next day, regret what they've done, they play the assault card?). I mean there's that old saying "thank god for alcohol so ugly guys can get laid too".
Cyberhunter, I understand this is very upsetting news for you that Kayla is now working at SR and will no longer be offering CIM service, but 2 threads and a PM is a little much in my opinion
Your questions have already been answered even if it is an answer you don't want to hear.
Paid or not, as already explained, unless she tells you it is okay, you assume it is not. The untold answer is no until she tells you yes.
That's easy. When the question is "honey, let's go shopping", and you say "yes", then yes means yes and you better be enthusiastic about those 100 shops. But when the question is "baby, let's go to the motorcycle show", and she says "yes", then yes means no and you're crazy for not reading between the lines and offering her an out!
ps: I am going to the motorcycle show this weekend, and having annoyed to the point of insanity all past GF's, do not have to negotiate the yes/no politics. Small mercies.
pps: I'm still bumping tiger off the airways
I came "of age" in the early 70's and I can't count the number of times in the locker room when guys talked about how they scored with this girl or that girl, and how she was reluctant at first and kept saying "NO" but she eventually relented and then was enthusiastic.
Looking back on that now, I am sure there was ALOT of date rape going on.
My parents taught me that "No mean NO" and that it wasn't "No means try harder and she'll give in".
Looking back on that now, I am sure there was ALOT of date rape going on.
My parents taught me that "No mean NO" and that it wasn't "No means try harder and she'll give in".
Obviously this is an issue for you, and I'm not going to beat the issue to death. Additionaly, in the case of your agency you have made it perfectly clear what your rules are. Clients should either respect them or not patrionize your agency.
The point I'm attempting to make is that communication is a two way street. Just as clients need to assertain limits, SPs need to make plain what those limits are if they are not spelled out. Particularly is this so if a term with legal meaning such as "Forceable Sexual Act" is going to be used.
Not always, if they are pumping away and 'accidently' pull out then push back in the wrong spot they can manage to slide in before I holler OW FUCKER and twist away........I have given an elbow to the side of the head 'accidently' a time or two.
As per Kayleigh's original post, I agree with her: clients should be respectful to the girls they see and the girls will usually be respectful in return and both parties have a good session and everyone will leave happy. The better clients know this and don't need to be told.
For newbies or the disrespectful by nature:
Greek is a very specific menu item. I do not have any interest in it myself, but SPs who offer this I notice state such in their ads usually, often as an extra charge option on top of the basic fee. It would be a good bet to assume that any SP who does not advertise Greek in her ads does not want to do it.
BBBJCIMSW...well, when I was talking to an agency SP a year ago about menus in general as pillow talk she said that the French girls that tour in Toronto with her agency tend to offer this as normal, which is why they are popular booking-wise when they come here from Montreal. It is not the norm in Toronto, though some SPs do it - best to check the ads. If one is unsure and is interested in this service option, ask is at the start of the session when the SP asks you what you'd like. If she doesn't offer that service she will say so. If you really really want BBBJCIM/SW and it is a make or break for you as to whether you will enjoy the session, just ask her at the point of booking by e-mail/PM/text/phone. Just say "I like BBBJCIM: do you offer this option?" She will then say yes or no and you will know and can book or not with that in mind.
Chances are, whatever menu item one wants, there is an SP out there who offers it, and it is a metter of searching and finding her. One should not substitute the search with pushing SPs who don't want what you want into doing it anyway.
For newbies or the disrespectful by nature:
Greek is a very specific menu item. I do not have any interest in it myself, but SPs who offer this I notice state such in their ads usually, often as an extra charge option on top of the basic fee. It would be a good bet to assume that any SP who does not advertise Greek in her ads does not want to do it.
BBBJCIMSW...well, when I was talking to an agency SP a year ago about menus in general as pillow talk she said that the French girls that tour in Toronto with her agency tend to offer this as normal, which is why they are popular booking-wise when they come here from Montreal. It is not the norm in Toronto, though some SPs do it - best to check the ads. If one is unsure and is interested in this service option, ask is at the start of the session when the SP asks you what you'd like. If she doesn't offer that service she will say so. If you really really want BBBJCIM/SW and it is a make or break for you as to whether you will enjoy the session, just ask her at the point of booking by e-mail/PM/text/phone. Just say "I like BBBJCIM: do you offer this option?" She will then say yes or no and you will know and can book or not with that in mind.
Chances are, whatever menu item one wants, there is an SP out there who offers it, and it is a metter of searching and finding her. One should not substitute the search with pushing SPs who don't want what you want into doing it anyway.
It is not an issue, I just don't agree with you.
I think that you don't go walking into someone's house and light a up a smoke without asking if it is okay, and I think you don't shoot your load in ANY women's mouth without asking if it is okay. Just like I don't think you stick your fingers in her ass without asking, you insert toys into her without asking. These are things you just, as a man, should not do until you ask.
I also think that too many bitch and moan that it is such a turn-off when SP's start listing theit do's and don'ts at the beginning of the session, so again - you ask. You want the service, so you ask. She shouldn't have to tell you.
I think that when a man does this, he is forcing the sexual act that he wants on the women who's throat he just shot down. That is my opinion. You don't have to agree, nor do you have to keep banging your head against the wall either, because my opinion, like yours is not going to change, and I am not here to try and change it either.
The point is, unless she tells you that she wants your load down her throat, you should assume she doesn't.
Like I assume you don't want my finger up your ass, unless you beg me for it.
This is really just common sense. Assume no is the answer until being told otherwise.
