The right to privacy.

[Cool Dude]

Some of us have been discussing privacy in an Ottawa thread. I thought I would bring this into the lounge. To paraphrase the view of a sp on the matter of privacy. Escorts have an obligation to protect the personal information of good clients who behave "discreetly". They have no obligation to protect information on gentlemen who have chosen to have a "public personna", as in that of a reviewer. The suggestion was made that maybe Demimonde should establish a reviewer base, matching the real names and personal information (phone #, e-mail) to their Terb/MBB aliases. This would allow the escort the opportunity to peruse his reviews to determine if she would like to see him or not.

 

[gramage]

provided this is only used for the SP's protection so they know a guy is safe and wont rip them off, and not to say no he's not worthy of a session with me he wont pay enough long term, it's not a very serious problem.

 

[Laura]

Okay you have me a little confused

If I am incorrect I thought the discussion on the Ottawa site was about girls not wanting to see certain guys that post shills or fake/bogus reviews?

It is almost like a double sided sword. I was told from a respectable reviewer that he knew where I lived before he got here because it was discussed on a private board. Is that not a breach of my privacy?

So when does the line get crossed?

Laura

 

[Laura]

Paul/IT What happens when a digruntled Sp that didn't appreciate a truthful or ficticious review by someone takes matters into her own hands and tries to ruin his social,personal and business life. It has happened before and no doubt will happen again.

I don't think that is the issue Paul. Those are usually very disturbed people. Like there are not guys out there that do the same thing by stalking us.

 

[Cool Dude]

Re: Okay you have me a little confused

If I am incorrect I thought the discussion on the Ottawa site was about girls not wanting to see certain guys that post shills or fake/bogus reviews?

It was more than that Laura. The suggestion was made that a database of reviewer aliases be made available on Demimonde. My objection is simple. I choose to trust the ladies I see with my personal information, not members of Demimonde or any other sp. Period!!! By the way Laura, it is not my intention to denigrate Demimonde or the main mission of your board; escort safety.

 

[Captain Bly]

Ripped and Lyla 3 is on the way I see

 

[Fred Zed]

So why do you think we should have an obligation to protect client privacy?

There are customers who are private and who expect privacy -- but these are NOT the customers who are making a public name for themselves by publicly reviewing escorts. Just as an escort advertises, public reviewers set themselves up as public figures, too! And, as such, they forfeit their right to privacy.

What I liked about the original Demimonde mission was the idea
of protecting escorts from bad dates. Taking this one step further and matching reviewers with clients is only going to hurt
both client and escort for many reasons that I will not even go into.

Certainly, it that happened, we would have to consider making the reviews area or the entire site access controlled also - meaning unfortunately that escorts would be barred from the controlled area.

 

[Cool Dude]

Lyla

I would never reveal any personal information (name, home #, family, etc.) about any women that I have been with, to anyone. I am disppointed to find out that you have no qualms about revealing personal information on clients to other sps that MAY not use that information with discretion.

 

[Laura]

Kathleen

I sent you this e-mail but I will also post it here to be very clear about this.

______________________Kathleen,

I know you are angry. I would be too. Dave has NOTHING to do with this site except for its design. You fail to remember that I am a Systems Engineer that specializes in security? There are no games going on. I have some of the best security features running on this site that only licensed individuals such as myself and the company I work for possess. By the way, Lyla is the original owner of Demimonde and has full access to everything. I don't think it was a hacker that hacked in two minutes after you. Maybe a hacker hacked you first and went from there. It was your user name and password. I do have the records.

But Kathleen, it is still under investigation as I have resources that are searching that IP right now and tracing it. Unfortunately that could take up to 2 weeks...really! See my board to them is not a priority. After I get to the bottom of it I will let you know what the outcome is. I suggest that you change you current password. Do not save it to your computer and log off and on every time you enter and leave the site.

If you had read my e-mail I stated until the issue was resolved.

Laura

 

[Fred Zed]

I think your big concern is that you operate a public review board -- one that is losing credibility and respect among your advertisers. If reviews go private -- which they should -- then you'll be out of business, and you'll lose your clout in the industry. For that reason, I don't trust your input with respect to what escorts should do to protect themselves from irresponsible reviewers.

..Lyla..

Well, I am not trying to debate you, I am only stating my opinion.
FYI there is no shortage of people who want to advertise here. We just restrict the number of advertisers to give them better exposure. Second, we could actually make a lot more money by converting the site to paid membership along the lines of TBD or other US boards. We have all the software that's required and we could do it in matter of weeks if we wanted.

So, infact, if $$ were our main concern, moving to a private access controlled system would be a better option for us.

 

[Fred Zed]

Fred, you and I both know that if you went to paid private access, this site would wither and die. Look at your participants.

You can't kid a kidder. I've been there and done that -- I know the realities, which many here probably don't. I probably know better than most what you can and can't do.

..Lyla..

You seem to have a very low opinion of other people.
First you tell me that my advertisers are unhappy. Truth of the matter is we are turning advertisers away and the site can barely handle the traffic it's getting. Now you are telling me that we can't set up a successful private access controlled site. Why ? Even when we had a request for voluntary donations set up we had a decent number of people contributing ?

If I wanted advice on how to make this thing work I certainly wouldn't come to you.

 

[Fred Zed]

No, because you tend to take the low road. Which is why you're willing to defend reviewers who want to remain unaccountable for their behaviour.
.Lyla..

Low road or not, I still wouldn't take advice from you Lyla.
If I need advice I know where to go. As I recall I only posted a couple of announcements about TERB on Lyla's list when I originally set TERB up. I was just getting started on the internet and didn't even know what the word spam meant. I don't even see that it's relevant here.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I got to get some sleep now.

 

[Fred Zed]

. You say you're getting 3000 unique hits a day these days -- well, I can recall a time, when you were just starting up when you were receiving several hundred hits a day from your Special Links entry on Lyla's List. Too bad you haven't got the grace to show some gratitude for where you got your start-up.

..Lyla..

I get close to 4000-5000 unique hits a day Lyla. Those numbers you are quoting are from earlier this year. I already explained to you that I knew very little about the internet when I started the TERB board. As I recall, I later apologized to you for the mistakes
I made during those learning days. People have to start somewhere.

Regardless, I got to get some sleep now.

 

[Laura]

Kathleen

Kathleen,

Your identity was never posted on Demimonde. If Lyla heard it from a third party then shit happens. Everyone was told that security is only as strong as its members about discussing things to other people. How can I control the gossip colony? Can't! Same as I can't control people circulating e-mails back and forth but it happens.

Need some sleep here.

Laura

 

[JDayger]

Sorry to jump in here but...

Lyla asks a very important question at the beginning of this thread (before it became silly) which I believe deserves an answer.

The question was "An irresponsible reviewer can cause an escort tremendous anguish and perhaps may even cost her business -- and yet, what sort of check and balance is there to ensure that reviewers are always fair and objective? There is none."

I have thought about this all afternoon (as I was making enough money to fuck A1provider - different thread) and I think I have arrived at the answer.

Reviewers provide the checks and balances. While not at all an SP kind of guy, I receive e-mails on a daily basis from TERBites requesting verifacation of posts or trends about various MP's.

On can constantly see various reviews defended or abused by the members of boards, the often cried YMMV theme, or even out right challagnes to the correctness of information.

So on reflection I don't think the SP's or MP's or Dancers have much to worry about on public forums like this if they provide the level of service advertised.

My question is more directed to the private e-mails. Knowone really knows what is being said in private, do they.

 

[JDayger]

The most honest answer I have

Is that there is no stopping a post on a public board.

However, Fred has been rather proactive (and to some perhaps too proactive) in removing posts that are of a hurtful nature.

I still think it comes down to the validity of the poster. Some posters I take what is said by them as gospel and others I do not believe them no matter what they say or post.

Newbies do not have the advantage of knowing who to believe upfront but the search function on names/handles I think allows for a reasonable review of previous posts. Information is the key.

Like NASA says, sometimes trying to solve the problem creates so many new problems that the first problem seems rather small in hindsite.

JDayger

 

[colt]

Lyla,

With respect, it seems like your remedy is disproportional to the problem.

As you state it, the problem is the anguish a malicious or inaccurate review can cause an SP. You specifically site the anguish and potential damage to the SP's business as your concerns. We might as well roll in the issue of publicizing an SP's personal info (location, hobbies, personal details etc.) because it seems to be one part of the larger issue - namely SP's are subject to reviews that have no quality control mechanism and, according to you, the results can be devestating.

You say the solution is, post info about clients (presumably real names, phone numbers, any info that could be used to id them) and the type of reviews they post. Then all SP's could make an informed choice about whether to see a specific client.

As I said above your solution seems disproportional and does not reflect the reality of the situation. The reality being, good or bad, the information that clients post about SPs is much closer to the public domain than the information you are talking about compiling.

 

[colt]

Lets say I am the prototypical sociopathic bad client (I am not BTW). Assume I want to gather information on a specific SP. Do I need to wait for a review? No, if I am a true sociopath and am patient and (on the surface) charming enough, an investment of $250 - $500 will probably get me an appointment with that SP. At that point I would have access to whatever info a reviewer might post (location for incalls, tatoos, and whatever info the SP chooses to share with a client). I know you and others screen your clients but lets not pretend that a true sociopath, committed to getting close to you could not. I am not trying to be a fear mongerer here, my point is simply that a suggestion that such a list would protect you from having your personal info fall into the wrong hands doesn't really hold water. The very nature of your profession exposes you to this risk...it is a risk you have chosen to take (please do not misinterpret me - no one accepts the risk of violence or anything of that nature - I simply meant that when you post a website and work as an SP you accept that there is some degree of risk a person you would rather not know might stumble across that info).

Clients do not choose to take that risk. If someone wanted to gather info on myself or another poster what steps would they have to take? I don't deny that someone who is decent with a computer and half way observant could probably compile a pretty good idea of where some of us live, what we might do for a living, etc.. Nevertheless we, by choice, keep our identities and personal information farther from the public domain than you do. For you to arbitrarily put that information on a list in cyberspace seems to violate what I bet most clients assume is an implied promise of confidentiality.

My point, made none to concisely, is that if a reviewer posts a malicious review, or posts personal info about an SP, he has absolutely violated a confidence and is out of bounds. I hope that Fred and the other moderators stay on top of things enough to protect SPs from these types of violations. Nonetheless, even if such a review is posted, the potential damage to an SP's privacy is far less than the damage that could be done to a client if his information was inappropriately made public. For better or worse, your information is somewhat attainable - it is not a nice thought, but it is a fact. A client's info is far less attainable and most of us want it to stay that way.

 

[colt]

As for inaccurate or malicious reviews. Unfortunately they are a part of life. You benefit from the exposure the internet provides you and you suffer the consequences of the ease with which information (truthful or otherwise) is disseminated. If an SP cannot handle the emotional impact of nasty reviews (I am not condoning them, merely acknowledging the reality that they will occur) or if her business falls because of an inaccurate review that is unfortunate but it is the cost of doing business.

To threaten the security of all you clients in an attempt to combat this problem seems extreme. If I was a computer literate lurker and I learned there was personal information compiled somewhere about hobbyists, hobbyists who might be married, or could be comprimised in some other way, and have significant amounts of disposable income - I would devote every waking minute to hacking into that information. As a true paranoid when it comes to the internet, my bet is it could be done, regardless of how good your security is.

Ultimately I guess it is all moot - nature has a way of sorting everything out. If you go ahead with this plan I am sure many clients, who are paranoid about the security of their information, will choose not to see you. Those who trust you and the security of Demimonde will not be disuaded. Everyone will find their own comfort level in the end.

 

[JDayger]

Lyla

I am all for SP's having a "Bad Client" list, and a private forum. I neither want to be a part of it nor would/have I demanded free access to it. However TERB is for the client to use as a method of communicating to other clients in an informal manner. TERB also allows free access to both clients and providers I might add.

And if it became a matter of personal safety I would hope that the SP called the Police and laid a complaint against any client who threatened to injure or kill her. This action now transends the board and brings the justice system into mediate the dispute. Both sides have something to lose if their behaviour is inappropriate.

However I feel that the "Bad Client" list is a private communication made amongest those SP's that wish to participate in the dissemination of this information.

The Review Boards are a comment on a product/service purchased by a consumer and as such has the right to be placed in a more public domain. I am in no way accepting of certain of the personal information that has been posted on TERB in the past, and I like you must rely on the moderators of this board to edit this information out if it is brought to their attention.

It is encumbent upon us, members of this community to alert the moderators of inappropriate information and to be vigilent in denouncing censorship by the board moderators if they abuse our trust.

While you may not agree with my position, and are perhaps unaccepting of the inherent unfairness that it implies, there are two differing standards. Consumers get to review providers in this public forum, and to a degree reviewers get to hide behind an alias.

But who ever said life is fair. Perhaps you should become a consumers of some young boytoys services and write us a review? I for one would welcome a female consumers view of the sex trade.

Worst case it informs those lurkers who are too afraid to ask for information and at best it may just be an interesting and informative review. I await your first review with baited breath!

Dayger