This is sickening, how does the world allow this to continue......

[rama putri]

It's worthwhile distinguishing the religion from the ethnic culture. My understanding is that the "tradition" of honour killing has more to do with culture than religion in that there are Muslim countries that do not have this tradition, and that it is practiced by some non-Muslims in related cultures as well.

There you go giving excuses for them again.

 

[Mia.Colpa]

Interesting thread, purposely intended to get your juices flowing. This barbaric practice is not part of any Islamic law or religion. It exists within a few tribal groups in that part of the world, not just Turkey, some really old thinking people that can't seem to come out of the dark ages. I just find it frustrating that those governements who claim to be against this and say all the right things about how bad it is don't seem to be aggressive enough to stop it or at least severly punish the perpetrators, ie. punishable by life in prison or death. I can't imagine any sane person saying it's part of a group's custom and we should not question it, as far as I'm concerned when it comes to taking someone's life away, especially innocent, little children, it infuriates me, there is no reason anyone can ever give that it's acceptable in any group, religion, sector, tribe, whatever, anywhere on this planet. Helpless little kids that can't defend themselves against several male adults, this is murder in the first degree!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[spankingman]

We so called "civilized" countries are no so innocent ourselves over the past couple of hunded years if you believe your history lessons.

 

[WoodPeckr]

There you go giving excuses for them again.

Hardly!
It's more of a clarification.
How could you miss that?....

 

[HOF]

Interesting thread, purposely intended to get your juices flowing. This barbaric practice is not part of any Islamic law or religion. It exists within a few tribal groups in that part of the world, not just Turkey, some really old thinking people that can't seem to come out of the dark ages. I just find it frustrating that those governements who claim to be against this and say all the right things about how bad it is don't seem to be aggressive enough to stop it or at least severly punish the perpetrators, ie. punishable by life in prison or death. I can't imagine any sane person saying it's part of a group's custom and we should not question it, as far as I'm concerned when it comes to taking someone's life away, especially innocent, little children, it infuriates me, there is no reason anyone can ever give that it's acceptable in any group, religion, sector, tribe, whatever, anywhere on this planet. Helpless little kids that can't defend themselves against several male adults, this is murder in the first degree!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you done ranting about it? How do you purpose to change it? Do you not realize that there are many practises in the Western world that are seen as barbaric too? Let's deal with our own problems. We can't even keep our own peace-Caledonia, or employ our own people, or feed all that need to be fed. Our backyard isn't clean. Do I feel for those being abused and murdered? Yes absolutely and such practises are barbaric. We are not going to create change for those who do not want to change. When I wrote about the Western world, specifically I meant the Catholic church and all of their misgivings. I left the church because I couldn't support anyone who abuses children and has murdered for religious beliefs. Hmmm, sounds just like what you're talking about. Get my drift about our own backyards.

 

[Mia.Colpa]

Are you done ranting about it? How do you purpose to change it? Do you not realize that there are many practises in the Western world that are seen as barbaric too? Let's deal with our own problems. We can't even keep our own peace-Caledonia, or employ our own people, or feed all that need to be fed. Our backyard isn't clean. Do I feel for those being abused and murdered? Yes absolutely and such practises are barbaric. We are not going to create change for those who do not want to change. When I wrote about the Western world, specifically I meant the Catholic church and all of their misgivings. I left the church because I couldn't support anyone who abuses children and has murdered for religious beliefs. Hmmm, sounds just like what you're talking about. Get my drift about our own backyards.

If I knew how to change it, I wouldn't be posting this would I????? Do I have to have all the answers around here? lol

Sure we have problems in our backyard, you could use that arguement when Haiti had their earthquake, many people were complaining why send money down there when we have child poverty and other problems right here in Canada. I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about murder, can't be any clearer than that.

 

[Daddio]

So what then should we call Christianity, I mean its past is just as blood, dirty and intolerant as every other religion.

I mean a quick look at the skeletons of the Roman Catholic Church will show you wondrous things like sending children to war (The Children’s Crusade of 1212), popes who were criminals (Alexander VI), popes who actually sold the papacy (Benedict IX), others who actually accepted bribes for absolution (Gregory VI), the Spanish Inquisition, the Witchcraft trials , anti woman biases in the revisions of the King James Bible, forced conversion of indigenous peoples, turning a blind eye to genocide … shall I go on?

Let’s not forget the fact that until 1992 the official position of the church was still that Galileo was wrong and the Earth was indeed the centre of the Universe.

Before you call any other culture or religion “barbaric” or "intolerant" maybe you should take a long look at the other ones too.

I hope you arent really trying to compare the archaic laws sitting dormant and unpracticed in the books of Christianity with the current practices of Islamic extremists. Flogging your daughter for being a victim of rape, and neglecting to incorporate interstellar research into scripture are not the same crime. Thank goodness Christianity's darkness is in the past. They have evolved. Where the hell has Islam been?

 

[masterchief]

I hope you arent really trying to compare the archaic laws sitting dormant and unpracticed in the books of Christianity with the current practices of Islamic extremists. Flogging your daughter for being a victim of rape, and neglecting to incorporate interstellar research into scripture are not the same crime. Thank goodness Christianity's darkness is in the past. They have evolved. Where the hell has Islam been?

Of course I am, since if we’re going to compare the two we should put them on an even keel.

Christianity has been around for about 2000 years , while the birth of Islam is pegged at 610 AD. So Islam is about 400 years behind Christianity in its development. Much as Islam is going through right now, Christianity had its growing pains of extremism (the inquisition), consented rape (prima nocta), forced conversions, murder of “infidels”, condoned torture , extremist fanaticism (the Pilgrims) and many of the same things that you scorn Islam for.

Would you hold a 10 year old to the same expectations of a 20 year old?

Yes Christianity’s darkness is in the past but we can’t ignore it or scorn any other religion that is at an earlier point of development. They need the same time to evolve.

 

[RandyAndy2]

Thank goodness Christianity's darkness is in the past.

Not entirely. Don't forget about the children who have been molested by priests. How about the Vatican's edicts against birth control? I'm sure if we got seriously into it we could come up with a list of things that indicates there's still some "darkness" to modern day Christianity. But that would open up a whole new can of worms.

 

[WoodPeckr]

It's not just confined to the RC Church. Let's not forget about those bible thumping fundie bigamist idiots in Texas who were marrying all those underage girls till the government finally stepped in to end all their religious 'happy horsh*t'.....

Then there were the Branch Davidians and lets not leave out "Peoples Temple Agricultural Project" in Jonestown....

 

[fuji]

We so called "civilized" countries are no so innocent ourselves over the past couple of hunded years if you believe your history lessons.

Or even currently, if you take a look at statistics on violence against women. Too many in the West still consider it acceptable for a husband to beat a wife who is suspected of cheating. It's still extremely common, and frequently glorified on TV.

Hillbilly 1: I caught my wife in bed with my best friend.
Hillbilly 2: You bitter?
Hillbilly 1: Yeah, beat HIM too!

Pow! Right in the kisser! One of these days Alice, straight to the Moon!

There's also no shortage of white Christian men who, owing to some offense against the honour of the family (usually related to infidelity or an impending divorce) has turned on and killed his wife AND children before committing suicide himself. How different is that really?

In Pakistan and Turkey they say "the family honour made me do it", which is not so different from the common refrain of wife beaters here, "she made me do it".

Plainly things are a little bit worse in that part of the world than here, but we're not so clean ourselves, and it's only really been since 1970 that our culture has taken the issue of violence against women seriously. I imagine that has more to do with our earlier development and higher levels of education than any sort of cultural or religious superiority, and even then, we have much still to be ashamed of in 2010.

 

[buttercup]

We should remember, too, the pioneer settler communities of North America around the 1870s, who were often a law unto themselves. Many communities had a tradtiion that a "decent" white woman who had been raped by Red Indians should commit suicide. Some communities even included white women who had merely been captured by Indians in the tradition, on the ground that you couldn't be sure. Women who refused to follow the tradition were ostracized, even by their immediate families.

 

[rama putri]

We so called "civilized" countries are no so innocent ourselves over the past couple of hunded years if you believe your history lessons.

Again. That is not the point. If I care about my family, I am going to do what I can to heal my family. I should not care less what the asshole family across the street does. I further shouldn't make up excuses, well that family are assholes and has a history of being an assholes, bla, bla, bla. On the other hand if I don't care about my family, I will do nothing and point out since the other family is full of asshole as an excuse.

Do none of you apologists get it?

 

[WhaWhaWha]

Not entirely. Don't forget about the children who have been molested by priests. How about the Vatican's edicts against birth control? I'm sure if we got seriously into it we could come up with a list of things that indicates there's still some "darkness" to modern day Christianity. But that would open up a whole new can of worms.

I agree atrocities still occur in the name of every religion. But you aren't going to find any high ranking priests or bishops quoting passages in the bible to justify priests raping altar boys. There's no faith-based promoters of NAMBLA.

 

[Cinema Face]

I'm usually a lurker here, but I have a hard time staying quiet about this kind of shit.
There is a difference between a society that has a certain small percentage of sickos, ie nations in the West, and societies where virtually the entire population is brought up on a religious doctrine that promotes sick behaviour ie middle eastern countries. Its one thing for an individual to have some form of psychological flaw that causes him or her to murder or do other atrocities. Its another when its religiously or culturally motivated.
Islam says it is all about peace and tolerance. If you dig down, you find that Islam provides peace only if you are a Muslim, peace exists only with other Muslims of the same sect (eg Sunni vs Shiite) and tolerance involves allowing Christians to exist only if they pay a tax (the Jizya). Sure, Muslims will point out that there are plenty of passages in the Quran which preach peace and tolerance. Many of these passages are however deemed invalid by passages which were created later, as Muhammed gained more power and became more militant. As Muhammed's followers grew in numbers, the verses in the Quran began to advocate for more violence and intolerance. Hence the calls for the extermination of Jews,Polytheists, and infidels in general.
Islam provides justification in the Quran and the Hadiths that allow men to physically abuse or even kill their wives and daughters (or more distant female relatives for that matter) over issues of "honour" Women in Islam are never supposed to be in contact with men they are not related to (including unrelated males unless they are married to them, in which case they become related to them. The penalty for the "crime" of being in the company of unrelated males is severe. In western countries, which Turkey is considered to be, females are being coerced into committing suicide to restore family honour, to save the males from jail time.
What can be done about this? I don't think this is something we can wait out to let it die off with the older generation. There seems to be younger men following in the footsteps of the elders. I think we need to stop being so damned politically correct about treating this religion with respect. We need to have economic sanctions against any country that allows any form of human rights to be violated on a regular basis. Of course this will never happen because we in the west are drunk and high on middle eastern oil. Imagine if we stopped buying middle eastern oil - do you think that might have an effect on what goes on in these countries? I think it would.
We also need to stop allowing immigration of any person who believes in any doctrine that sanctions violence and denial of basic human rights to any of its followers or non-followers. Of course, this could technically rule out Christians as well (the Bible has some real nastiness in it, particularly in the old Testament, not to mention treatment of gays etc). Personally, I think the world would be much better off without all the mythology that exists. If their were no religion, I'm convinced that wars and many other atrocities would be much more rare. Its time for people to start believing in the spirit that is themselves, stop looking to a prophet and a god to give them "strength".

You're absolutely right on all accounts. It's worth noting that peace in Islam only applies to Muslims, yet Muslims are by far the overwhelming majority of victims of Islam . Muslims kill other Muslims far more than they kill infidels.

 

[Cinema Face]

So what then should we call Christianity, I mean its past is just as blood, dirty and intolerant as every other religion.

I mean a quick look at the skeletons of the Roman Catholic Church will show you wondrous things like sending children to war (The Children’s Crusade of 1212), popes who were criminals (Alexander VI), popes who actually sold the papacy (Benedict IX), others who actually accepted bribes for absolution (Gregory VI), the Spanish Inquisition, the Witchcraft trials , anti woman biases in the revisions of the King James Bible, forced conversion of indigenous peoples, turning a blind eye to genocide … shall I go on?

Let’s not forget the fact that until 1992 the official position of the church was still that Galileo was wrong and the Earth was indeed the centre of the Universe.

Before you call any other culture or religion “barbaric” or "intolerant" maybe you should take a long look at the other ones too.

Christianity as a religion has done some barbaric things in the past but they don't do that anymore. They haven't for a very long time. Our society wouldn't tolerate that barbarism from Christianity for an instant, so why do we tolerate it from Islam?

Islam is the only religion that still kills blasphemers and apostates.

 

[PORNonWHEELS]

Turkey is a civilized country.


Maybe Ayatollah Khomeni was a humanitarian too !!!!

Istanbul might be a civilised city, but thinking Turkey is a civilised country can not be further than truth. Kamal Atatourk had the foresight to keep religion out of the government but changing the mentality of the entire population will take a few centuries.

 

[erictheered]

There's also no shortage of white Christian men who, owing to some offense against the honour of the family (usually related to infidelity or an impending divorce) has turned on and killed his wife AND children before committing suicide himself. How different is that really?

First of all, in white Christian America, its not a matter of family honour. Its a matter of anger and revenge. In cases like these, the guy has lost his sanity, he has not taken direction from some holy text that tells him he need to kill his family then himself.

In Pakistan and Turkey they say "the family honour made me do it", which is not so different from the common refrain of wife beaters here, "she made me do it".

Its very different. To restore family honour means to create an image in the community's mind that a "problem was solved". To claim "she made me do it" is to try to provide an excuse for not handling anger well, as pathetic an excuse as it is.

Plainly things are a little bit worse in that part of the world than here, but we're not so clean ourselves, and it's only really been since 1970 that our culture has taken the issue of violence against women seriously. I imagine that has more to do with our earlier development and higher levels of education than any sort of cultural or religious superiority, and even then, we have much still to be ashamed of in 2010.

True - we can't claiim to be perfect. Bad shit still happens in the West. But its not from repression of people. Its not from being only allowed to learn from a religious text. Its not entirely from being motivated by religious teachings (although Christians attitudes towards homosexuality still is pretty bad).

 

[fuji]

First of all, in white Christian America, its not a matter of family honour. Its a matter of anger and revenge. In cases like these, the guy has lost his sanity, he has not taken direction from some holy text that tells him he need to kill his family then himself.

OK, I accept your explanation. Do you figure that makes his family any less dead?? So murder is OK only when it's for anger but not when it's for honour?

Its very different. To restore family honour means to create an image in the community's mind that a "problem was solved". To claim "she made me do it" is to try to provide an excuse for not handling anger well, as pathetic an excuse as it is.

Again, this sounds like an unimportant cultural difference. The same act dressed up in different clothes.

But its not from repression of people.

I submit that in fact violence against women is repression.

 

[train]

The question I have for you is what right do we have to say what is right or wrong if a practice has been taking place for hundreds of years? Do we really know better than others?
.

At first I thought you were being sarcastic when you wrote this but ,as incredible as it may seem I think you actually believe this. What you should have said was " What right do we have not to try everything we can to eliminate this horrific practice which has been taking place for hundreds of years".