Tipping: why is 10% not perfectly adequate?

[Toke]

While I agree with what many 'pro-wage' posters are saying, not one has addressed the issue of who/where these equitable wages will come from. THEY WILL BE PASSED ON TO THE CUSTOMER THROUGH INCREASED MENU PRICES (20-30%) AND/OR SERVICE CHARGES THAT WILL BE BINDING.

--- most of us that do tip would welcome this situation. Passing the cost on to the customer would benefit most people. Right now the cost is already passed on to the customer via tips. So what changes? What changes is that the cheap bastards that do not tip or under-tip would now not have a choice which would make life easier for the server as well as those of us that do tip.

Also, in answer to one of Toke's other questions. Yes I am one that would go into Hooters to gawk at the girls. I assume you go to Hooters because of the overpriced beer?
The difference is that when my buddy and I walk into Hooters the girls that know us welcome us to their section because they know we will tip them well.

But Toke has still not answered the question that I have asked twice and the OP asked right off the bat and either has anybody else..... How come 10% tip was fine 30 years ago but now it is an insult? Don't blame it on cost of living or inflation because we have all had to deal with those issues without tips. I have accepted the higher rate of tipping and do follow protocol but I still do not know why. The cost of eating out has increased more than the cost of living, so 10% of a bill is already substantially higher than it was 30 years ago.

See this thread, posts #67 and #87, where I briefly answered as to where I believe 10% is fine.
I've only been in the industry for 15 years but when I began it was 15% customary and although I've heard rumblings of an increase to as high as 20%, if asked I still state that the standard is 15%. 10% does not cover the cost of today's service. Bigger places that are designed to run like machines take more staff. More servers, bussers, bartenders (e.g. one designated to only make drinks for the dinind room rather than serving those sitting at the bar), a kitchen that is also tipped, etc. So don't think that when you leave $20 on $100 the waiter keeps it all. Far from it. Not only must they give the house about $5, but then there is the difference of the idiot who left $10 (five of which also went to the house).

Sure, you may argue that you shouldn't have to make up for the other guy, but that is why most waiters (at least I would) would be in favour of 15% on the bill and never a penny more or less. You sound like a person who tips and I/we appreciate that. I'M not looking for 25%. 15% is adequate which may be adjusted up or down if dependent on service.

P.S. I've never been to Hooters.

 

[oldjones]

Tipping is voluntary; whatever you think is appropriate, or "…entirely adequate" is. The real question: Why do some tippers so need the approval of others—usually for their less than generous ways—that they keep introducing this never-to-be-resolved topic?

The ONLY other person whose approval a tipper needs is the provider of the service, because that tip is a way of saying, "thank you" concretely, and it's a pity when a genuine attempt looks stingy. But for anyone trying to get the license of general approval for their stinginess, I say, "Grow up. Adults tip what they decide to."

 

[james t kirk]

"They" can raise the notion of tipping in restaurants to 20 or 25 or 100% Doesn't really matter. It's what the market will bear.

To me - 15% is for a job well done. 20% - you have to be exceptional. Anything more would require oral service under the table (from selected cute females - and well, that's never happened, soooooo)

I'm curious to know what the stereotypes are for tippers?

Young vs. old

Women vs. men

Groups vs. small parties

suits vs. blue collar

Canadians vs. non Canadians, etc...


I had a female friend who waited tables and she would complain about women and Asians (sorry) being cheap tippers.

 

[TGirl Nikki]

There are a few interesting themes that are running through this thread (pure generalizations that don't apply to all posters):

1) Everyone thinks the grass is greener on the other side.
2) Everyone thinks they do more for their money than the other guy does.
3) Everyone thinks that other people deserve less money than they get, because there's no way their job is as hard as yours.

This is the way the western world works, guys. The average worker does just enough not to get fired, and gets paid just enough not to quit. That's true of 99% of the people out there, because most people are working for someone else. Even if you own your own business, you're still working for your customers, in a manner of speaking. That's just how it is, and if you're not happy with your job, go find another one.

As for specific question asked by the OP, I don't know if there's an answer, because social mores evolve all the time without direct explanation. Maybe it's because a larger percentage of the population works in the service sector than ever before, so more people feel compelled to support others in the same sector - over time, this led to an increase in the socially-acceptable tipping rate, which servers were more than happy to accept. Social conventions are funny things, and often, don't make any rational sense; then again, most of us aren't very rational, even when we think we are. It's amazing how many heuristics and cognitive shortcuts we use in our day-to-day lives, because thinking through every single decision would take way too much time.


My own tipping policies? I usually start with about 15%, then I round it up to the nearest $5, because I don't like carrying change and the extra couple of bucks doesn't make a difference in the long run. To me, it's pocket change, but to the server, it's an evaluation of their job performance, and a couple of bucks might be the difference between a smile and a frown. If I can help someone feel a bit better about their job for a few dollars, I figure it's worth it in the long run.

Let's say I go for breakfast with someone, and the bill is $32. I pay with a pair of $20 bills, I leave the standard 15% (about $5), the server barely blinks, and I end up with a bunch of change I don't want or need. Or, I can just give her the full $40 (25%) and all of a sudden, she's smiling and feeling a lot better about her crappy job. The net difference for me is three bucks (which I won't miss) but for her, it's a compliment on her attitude/service/whatever. Those positive feelings might carry forward towards the next customer she sees, and might help her get through what might be a particularly stressful day.

Isn't someone else's smile worth a measly three dollars?

 

[james t kirk]

come on baby leave some change behind
she was a bitch, but I don't care
she brought our food out on time
and wore a funky barrette in her hair
.
come on baby leave some change behind
she was a bitch but good enough
to leave some change,
everybody's good enough for some change
.
the girl's got family
she needs cash to buy aspirin for her pain,
everybody's good enough for some change
.
we all get the flu,
we all get aids
we've got to stick together after all,
everybody's good enough for some change,
SOME FUCKING CHANGE!!!

 

[shack]

The average worker does just enough not to get fired, and gets paid just enough not to quit.

That is so very true. Profound (unless you stole it from someone else).

 

[shack]

How come 10% tip was fine 30 years ago but now it is an insult?

I'm in my 50's and I don't ever remember 10% being the standard. The only difference 30 years ago is that we were students without a lot of money.

I've always understood it to be 15%.

 

[CapitalGuy]

Where didi servers support the HST. Passing your cost-of-living on to someone else? Is that 10% standard or maximum? Just let me know if it is max-money and I'll oblige.

Where did I say servers support the HST? "Passing your cost of living on to someone else"???? WTF?? It sounds like you're asking for a handout. Talk about a culture of expectation!! Zoinks.

I don't know what you mean by "max money" and what you're offering to oblige to.

Look, I'm sorry you have a shitty job, but you don't have an entitlement to my cash, no matter how strongly you feel that you do. Stop toking and go back to school.

 

[Toke]

Where did I say servers support the HST? "Passing your cost of living on to someone else"???? WTF?? It sounds like you're asking for a handout. Talk about a culture of expectation!! Zoinks.

I don't know what you mean by "max money" and what you're offering to oblige to.

Look, I'm sorry you have a shitty job, but you don't have an entitlement to my cash, no matter how strongly you feel that you do. Stop toking and go back to school.

Actually I'm a university grad. You brought HST into the conversation. What does that have to do with tipping? You inferred that you have to pay HST as if servers don't. Look, I didn't make the rules about tipping or making it legal for one industry to be exempt from paying minimum wage. I'm just stating the reason for it and offering the alternative (higher prices). I'm sure you've never worked in the indsutry so you don't know how small the profit margin is. Increase the wages to livable (and I'm talking at least $500-$600/week gross) and where do you think they'll get it? Don't know what business you're in but in every business it comes through sales.

Getting angry and referring to my job as shitty (BTW, I make good coin...CASH!!!) doesn't contribute to the conversation. The O.P. asked why 10% is inadequate and some answered. Rather than demerit 10%, I defended the act of tipping. If it didn't exist, and wages had to fall in line with the job, you would pay more without the option to 'stiff'. Why you would complain about that, I don't understand (yet I fully expect to hear you complain if the system was changed).

There is no entitlement to your cash, but seeing that it is customary to tip (which you obviously know) but you sound as if you don't want to, then don't. Believe me, with your attitude, I wouldn't want it anyway (and yes, I have returned tips before). The only thing I ask is that, knowing that a server expects it (as per custom), if you don't intend/want to, just say so upfront. You will be served accordingly. However, if you leave the serving expecting that you will follow custom, with no intention of doing so, then you in fact are stealing; if not misleading the server to render his services at a fee well below 'what the market IS bearing'.

 

[big.guy_13]

I firmly believe the following: if you don't do a good enough job, you don't get a tip. Tips should be based on merit, not something the servers should expect simply for showing up.

 

[capncrunch]

Long and short of it is NEVER fuck with someone who's got access to your food.

 

[burt-oh-my!]

Actually, now that I think about it, this whole conversation should start with the question: what hourly rate is reasonable for waitressing? If you say $20 per hour, I say that is to high, really I think in most cases $15 an hour is adequate. BUT REGARDLESS, lets work through some math to figure things out.

So, what % tipping will bring their wages to that level? (or the level you deem appropriate)

Suppose a waitress generates bills of say, $250 an hour. she earns minimum wage (is that correct IN ONTARIO?). she keeps lets say two thirds of her tips. So to get her to $15 per hour, she needs to earn an extra $5 per hour, or $7.50 in tips. That equates to a 3% tip rate. In high end restaurants, this would be even less.. If you think waitressing is worth $25 per hour, and the orders only amount to $100 per hour, then she would need tips of $15, or $22.50 gross, or 22.50% tips. I would be interested in those with knowledge to tell me A) What gross billing PER HOUR FOR A TOTAL SHIFT is, and B) What percent they have to give to others on staff.
From there the math should be straight-forward.

As a matter of fact, I think that the recent push to stop restaurants from getting a part of the tips is completely wrong-headed: the restaurant's infrastructure - decor, reputation, costs, food quality and expertise - etc is largely responsible for high tips, so why shouldn't they charge the server a basic access fee for the use of their investment?

 

[gcostanza]

Actually, now that I think about it, this whole conversation should start with the question: what hourly rate is reasonable for waitressing? If you say $20 per hour, I say that is to high, really I think in most cases $15 an hour is adequate. BUT REGARDLESS, lets work through some math to figure things out.

So, what % tipping will bring their wages to that level? (or the level you deem appropriate)

Suppose a waitress generates bills of say, $250 an hour. she earns minimum wage (is that correct IN ONTARIO?). she keeps lets say two thirds of her tips. So to get her to $15 per hour, she needs to earn an extra $5 per hour, or $7.50 in tips. That equates to a 3% tip rate. In high end restaurants, this would be even less.. If you think waitressing is worth $25 per hour, and the orders only amount to $100 per hour, then she would need tips of $15, or $22.50 gross, or 22.50% tips. I would be interested in those with knowledge to tell me A) What gross billing PER HOUR FOR A TOTAL SHIFT is, and B) What percent they have to give to others on staff.
From there the math should be straight-forward.

As a matter of fact, I think that the recent push to stop restaurants from getting a part of the tips is completely wrong-headed: the restaurant's infrastructure - decor, reputation, costs, food quality and expertise - etc is largely responsible for high tips, so why shouldn't they charge the server a basic access fee for the use of their investment?

I worked in the industry for 25 years (retired 3 years ago). I think I am somewhat qualified to answer some of your questions.

I would not have done the job for less than $28/hour .

A server's wage in Ontario is $8.90/hour. http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pubs/guide/minwage.php

Sales of $200/hour would be common in the restaurant that I worked in most recently.
It was a middle of the road place, not high end, but not a local diner, either.

Regarding 'Tipping Out', or 'Paying The House', in different restaurants, over the years, it ranged from 1% of Gross Sales, to as high as 6% of Gross Sales. In other words, If my sales were $1000 for a particular shift, I would pay out $10 in the 1st example, and $60 in the 2nd.




I was (in my estimation) a very good waiter. Highly skilled, charming to my guests, knowledgable about our menu, both foods, and drink. I took pride in what I did. It is a challenging position. Some restaurants that I worked at, would do charity days, where we would have local celebrities come in, and assist servers, and we would raise funds for whatever charity we were sponsering that month. They were, to a person, stunned at the skills required for the job. Organization, patience, knowledge, ability to manage time, multi task, all while keeping a smile on your face. Typically (in my experience), I would be managing dining experiences for 18-28 people at any time. Not everyone can do the job. Had I not averaged a living wage, I would have left the industry long ago, and found something that did pay in the same range.

I hope this answered some, if not all of your questions.

Regarding tipping, I felt if I performed my duties satisfactorily, 15% was fair, any more, was gravy.
Any less, I would wonder what I had done that disappointed my guest.

 

[oldjones]

Good for you, for trying to be rational about it burt. Ontario, like many places has a special, lower minimum wage for food service employees that went up to $8.90 in March. So to get her to $15/hr she needs $6.10 in tips. Tipping out a third means she needs to gross $9.15 in tips every hour, at say a 10% average per bill (the 15%ers and above making up for the cheapies and skippers) that would mean she'd need almost $100 per hour in bills every hour.

Whether it's Canoe or Dangerous Dan's no restaurant has a steady customer flow, so the off-peak hours gotta get balanced by the heavy ones. Trouble is, while a customer's are chewing, his tip isn't getting any bigger, when things are really hot and heavy, management may put on more staff which cuts the tip pie, and when a server's watering the ketchup or doing napkin origami, there's no tips at all.

If your $250/hr every hour came from a reliable source I'd say you'd made a point, assuming your $15/hr was the appropriate wage for the expertise and skill required. What was the source? But these days $15/hr buys pretty low level manual labour; is that the kind of restaurant you want to eat at? And of course we're ignoring issues like alcohol service and independent contracting as opposed to employment.

Bottom line: Tipping is voluntary. It's your direct payment in thanks, and whatever you think it should be is perfectly adequate. For you. As long as you don't care what anyone else thinks you're fine. But here in North America, most of the rest of us have settled at 15%. Trying to change the world one tip at a time won't get you anywhere.

And you may wait a long time for a menu next time you visit.

 

[blackrock13]

Good for you, for trying to be rational about it burt. Ontario, like many places has a special, lower minimum wage for food service employees that went up to $8.90 in March. So to get her to $15/hr she needs $6.10 in tips. Tipping out a third means she needs to gross $9.15 in tips every hour, at say a 10% average per bill (the 15%ers and above making up for the cheapies and skippers) that would mean she'd need almost $100 per hour in bills every hour.

Whether it's Canoe or Dangerous Dan's no restaurant has a steady customer flow, so the off-peak hours gotta get balanced by the heavy ones. Trouble is, while a customer's are chewing, his tip isn't getting any bigger, when things are really hot and heavy, management may put on more staff which cuts the tip pie, and when a server's watering the ketchup or doing napkin origami, there's no tips at all.

If your $250/hr every hour came from a reliable source I'd say you'd made a point, assuming your $15/hr was the appropriate wage for the expertise and skill required. What was the source? But these days $15/hr buys pretty low level manual labour; is that the kind of restaurant you want to eat at? And of course we're ignoring issues like alcohol service and independent contracting as opposed to employment.

Bottom line: Tipping is voluntary. It's your direct payment in thanks, and whatever you think it should be is perfectly adequate. For you. As long as you don't care what anyone else thinks you're fine. But here in North America, most of the rest of us have settled at 15%. Trying to change the world one tip at a time won't get you anywhere.

And you may wait a long time for a menu next time you visit.

No worry, there's alway s the chalk board specials.

 

[burt-oh-my!]

re: gcostanzas numbers:

So, assuming you average $200/hour in billing, lets split the difference on the 'house take' , make it 3.5%, so you are charged $7, if you make 15% in tips, thats $30, so we have $8.90 wage, less $7, plus $30 = $31.90

Wage $8.90
Tips: $30
Less: House $7

Take home = $31.90 per hour.

20% would take it to $41.90 per hour.

That is WILDLY over what I think a server should be paid, so I guess we just have a vast difference of opinion. I see this as a job requiring no education whatsoever, favouring good looking people. there are lots and lots of jobs requiring education and technical skills paying less.

According to this:

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/City=Toronto/Hourly_Rate

nurses make about $30 per hour. Yes,I suppose they would get some benefits on top, but there is no way in hell I would consider a server to deserve even HALF of what a RN gets. Sorry, I don't consider the ability to smile and act nice comparable to:

RNs perform frequent patient evaluations, including monitoring and tracking vital signs, performing procedures such as IV placement, phlebotomy, and administering medications. Because the RN is much more regular contact with patients than are physicians, the RN is usually first to notice problems or raise concerns about patient progress.

RNs also develop the day-to-day nursing care plans both in hospital, and for care after discharge by families and visiting nurses.

 

[Toke]

re: gcostanzas numbers:

So, assuming you average $200/hour in billing, lets split the difference on the 'house take' , make it 3.5%, so you are charged $7, if you make 15% in tips, thats $30, so we have $8.90 wage, less $7, plus $30 = $31.90

Wage $8.90
Tips: $30
Less: House $7

Take home = $31.90 per hour.

20% would take it to $41.90 per hour.

That is WILDLY over what I think a server should be paid, so I guess we just have a vast difference of opinion. I see this as a job requiring no education whatsoever, favouring good looking people. there are lots and lots of jobs requiring education and technical skills paying less.

According to this:

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/City=Toronto/Hourly_Rate

nurses make about $30 per hour. Yes,I suppose they would get some benefits on top, but there is no way in hell I would consider a server to deserve even HALF of what a RN gets. Sorry, I don't consider the ability to smile and act nice comparable to:

RNs perform frequent patient evaluations, including monitoring and tracking vital signs, performing procedures such as IV placement, phlebotomy, and administering medications. Because the RN is much more regular contact with patients than are physicians, the RN is usually first to notice problems or raise concerns about patient progress.

RNs also develop the day-to-day nursing care plans both in hospital, and for care after discharge by families and visiting nurses.

Great. Now let's hear what you do for a living (complete with your qualifications) so we can 'guess-timate' what it's worth and rationalize not paying for it as priced, or increasing what is payed to give you your due.

In the meantime, mind telling me how much these jobs should pay (feel free to justify them with education level):

Garbage Collector:

TTC Driver:

Taxi Cab Driver:

Painter (Not the artistic type):

Teacher:

Lawyer:

Grocery Store Cashier:

Firefighter:

Doctor:

Mailman/woman:

Now for the most interesting 3; this should be interesting...

Exotic Dancer (aka Stipper):

Massage Parlour Attendent:

Escort (aka SP):

 

[burt-oh-my!]

No, LOL I am not going to dance to your drum and do a long expose and research all the jobs you requested me to.

However, let me summarize what I think you are saying; if ANYONE is overpaid, that negates any argument that servers are overpaid, which of course is logically rubbish.

 

[Toke]

No, LOL I am not going to dance to your drum and do a long expose and research all the jobs you requested me to.

However, let me summarize what I think you are saying; if ANYONE is overpaid, that negates any argument that servers are overpaid, which of course is logically rubbish.

You're right. Sorry to ask you to do do a long expose and research....

So you've researched what a server makes? I think you're using the word 'research' in place of 'infer'.

However, I'd like to do an expose on your job. What is it that you do and make?

 

[TGirl Nikki]

"Most people work just hard enough not to get fired, and get paid just enough money not to quit."

That is so very true. Profound (unless you stole it from someone else).

Lol, I'm afraid I can't claim ownership of that phrase, as profound as it is. These words of wisdom belong to the brilliant George Carlin (may he rest in peace).

I can't believe this thread is still going. I'm amazed at how passionate some people are when they're discussing someone else's job, or someone else's income. Kind of like those "what do you think an SP should get paid?" threads that never go anywhere. Where there is a market, there will be market inefficiencies, and where there are people engaged in such markets, they will exploit those inefficiencies wherever possible. If you spent half the time analyzing your own income and budget as you spend worrying about everyone else's, maybe you could improve own financial situation instead of just complaining about what the other guy makes.

Think waiters/waitresses get paid too much for too little work? Go get a job as one. There are tons of restaurants and bars out there always looking for good help; it's always better to see what things are like on the other side before passing judgement.

As for tipping, if you have a $300 dinner bill, then the difference between 10% and 15% is exactly $15. If you've just blown $300 on a dinner and you're getting bent out of shape over fifteen bucks, then you should probably take a closer look at your priorities in life.