Today is the 75th anniversary of the Doolittle Raid

[dirkd101]

You are completely wrong IV.

The Pacific war would have played out much the same, had the Doolittle raid not happened. The raid was nothing more than a propaganda win, a boost of morale for the citizens and it put the Japanese on notice that they weren't safe.

The rest of the campaign in the Pacific would have played out the same. The tow pronged attack, with separate commanders, hoping from island chain to island chain. Wiping out one Japanese garrison after another, until they reached Japan itself.

This one carrier would not have made any difference in changing things in the Pacific, had it not been detailed for this raid.

The Japanese being as militaristic as they were, were prepared to battle to the last against the Americans. At the very least, they wanted to bloody the Americans so bad that they would lose their taste for war. Much to their consternation the Americans were prepared to battle it out until the end. That end being Japan's surrender. The Americans plan for the invasion of Japan and conquering its military forces, was well detailed and showed timelines going into 1947 if memory serves me correct.

The bombs sealed the deal, after a few incendiary raids razed much of the remaining cities. Devastation on a magnitude that was horrific, in both terms of human suffering and buildings destroyed. The A bombs were merely the coup de grâce.

One carrier made a difference this early in the war. The home front was just as important to the war effort and this was a big win for buoying American spirit when it was needed most.

 

[Aardvark154]

Besides the morale factor (more at the bottom), the principal impact of the Doolittle Raid, is that the IJN was provoked into expanding the range of Japanese control as far as Wake and Midway this then lead to the Battle of Midway -- a true triumph of U.S. Naval Intelligence -- and the loss of 2/3 of the IJN's Fleet Carriers (Akagi [Red Castle], Hiryū [Flying Dragon], Sōryū [Blue Dragon], and Kaga [For the Province of the same name]* for the loss of one U.S. Navy Fleet Carrier (U.S.S. Yorktown). Needless to say those carriers weren't there in 1943. Originally the Japanese had intended to fortify a less expansive perimeter of islands.

President Roosevelt when asked where the planes had been launched from famously said Shangri-La

* Yes I looked it up in a book about the Battle of Midway

 

[dirkd101]

That's a great point Aardy. The Japanese certainly pt themselves into a pickle over the raid, by pushing further than they had anticipated. It's easy to see it now as a mistake, but at the time the IJN was seemingly unstoppable.

I've seen Roosevelt's quote in several books. He liked to send out cryptic messages about events and having the knowledge of the secrets, that the vast majority of his own people, even the military didn't know.

 

[buttercup]

That's a great point Aardy. The Japanese certainly pt themselves into a pickle over the raid, by pushing further than they had anticipated. It's easy to see it now as a mistake, but at the time the IJN was seemingly unstoppable.

There were very good reasons for regarding the I.J.N. as unstoppable -- right up until 10.25am on the morning of 04 June 1942. Until that moment, Japan had had the pacific all its own way. Pushing outwards everywhere. Overcoming more or less every defensive measure applied against them -- exactly as Germany was doing in Europe.
Earlier that morning, squadrons of US torpedo planes had attacked the JP carriers, with the loss of every plane, not a scratch on the carriers.
Both sides knew that the status of the I.J.N. at 10.25 am was, in the most apt word to describe the situation, unstoppable. The chances of the US navy being able to contain the I.J.N -- nil.

At that moment, three squadrons of US carrier-based dive bombers, and two more from Midway Island, arrived on the scene simultaneously. Plus, at this moment, the JP CAP fighters were all down at sea level (and they'd been busy shooting down all the torpedo planes, so they were low and fuel and ammo.)
Two JP carriers were set on fire almost immediately, and the other two later in the day. (The US could not actually sink the carriers as they had no torpedo planes left. The I.J.N. scuttled them the next day.)

By 10.30am Japan went from being unstoppable to being finished as a naval power. Now, it would be a war of attrition, which meant it was now inevitable that US would prevail.
As it turned out, the timing was of the essence. Nothing about the timing of the arrival of the dive-bombers, as it unfolded, had been planned. Pure good fortune. There's never been a more decisive 5-minute-turn-around (planned or unplanned) in naval history (perhaps in all history).

 

[SkyRider]

Question: Couldn't the bombers take off from unoccupied China and return to same? (There must be a reason why they were launched from a carrier.)

 

[SkyRider]

There were very good reasons for regarding the I.J.N. as unstoppable -- right up until 10.25am on the morning of 04 June 1942. Until that moment, Japan had had the pacific all its own way. Pushing outwards everywhere. Overcoming more or less every defensive measure applied against them -- exactly as Germany was doing in Europe.
Earlier that morning, squadrons of US torpedo planes had attacked the JP carriers, with the loss of every plane, not a scratch on the carriers.
Both sides knew that the status of the I.J.N. at 10.25 am was, in the most apt word to describe the situation, unstoppable. The chances of the US navy being able to contain the I.J.N -- nil.

At that moment, three squadrons of US carrier-based dive bombers, and two more from Midway Island, arrived on the scene simultaneously. Plus, at this moment, the JP CAP fighters were all down at sea level (and they'd been busy shooting down all the torpedo planes, so they were low and fuel and ammo.)
Two JP carriers were set on fire almost immediately, and the other two later in the day. (The US could not actually sink the carriers as they had no torpedo planes left. The I.J.N. scuttled them the next day.)

By 10.30am Japan went from being unstoppable to being finished as a naval power. Now, it would be a war of attrition, which meant it was now inevitable that US would prevail.
As it turned out, the timing was of the essence. Nothing about the timing of the arrival of the dive-bombers, as it unfolded, had been planned. Pure good fortune. There's never been a more decisive 5-minute-turn-around (planned or unplanned) in naval history (perhaps in all history).

Much credit must also be given to the American codebreakers.

 

[malata]

Much credit must also be given to the American codebreakers.

Indeed. The movie 'The Imitation Game' is based on a true story on how some unsung heroes - designed a machine to decipher Enigma, thus changing the course of strategic warfare.

 

[Aardvark154]

Question: Couldn't the bombers take off from unoccupied China and return to same? (There must be a reason why they were launched from a carrier.)

Hmm, I don't know. ~~~~However, I believe that the reason may have been that they would have had to fly over Japanese occupied territory in China and hence Japanese air defences would have been alerted.

 

[Aardvark154]

Much credit must also be given to the American codebreakers.

https://www.amazon.com/Was-There-Breaking-Secrets-Harbor/dp/1568523475

 

[gcostanza]

Source or is this just another stereotyping of liberals as anti-war ? It is interesting in that many of the purple heart winners in the congress & senate are democrats while your hero Trump was a coward that faked illness to get out of military service.

skyrider has no sources. He makes things up as he needs to to attempt to substantiate a weak position.

 

[mandrill]

Hmm, I don't know. ~~~~However, I believe that the reason may have been that they would have had to fly over Japanese occupied territory in China and hence Japanese air defences would have been alerted.

There might have been an issue re whether China had airfields that were capable of handling bombers, or were in range of Tokyo in early 1942. The AVG was a fighter-only outfit, IIRC.

In 1944, the US tried flying B-29's out of China to attack the major Japanese cities, but without a lot of success. The B-29 was super long range, certainly far longer than the B-25. Not sure if B-24's could have done the trip in 1942, but it would have taken time to transport them to China with full ground crews and supplies.

 

[SkyRider]

Not sure if B-24's could have done the trip in 1942, but it would have taken time to transport them to China with full ground crews and supplies.

So, the plan was to get the carrier as close as possible to the Japanese mainland to launch the B-24's but that damn fishing boat forced them to launch early. Surprised that the bombers were able to penetrate Japanese airspace unopposed.

 

[mandrill]

So, the plan was to get the carrier as close as possible to the Japanese mainland to launch the B-24's but that damn fishing boat forced them to launch early. Surprised that the bombers were able to penetrate Japanese airspace unopposed.

Japan had pretty much no air defenses that early in the War. And their radar, flak and fighter defences were never anything approaching British or German levels of effectiveness or density even in 44-45.

 

[Aardvark154]

In addition to what Oagre posted, the Japanese did not expect them to launch when they did, believing that they would have to wait until the next day -- they never thought the U.S. would be able to launch land based medium bombers from a carrier.

 

[dirkd101]

So, the plan was to get the carrier as close as possible to the Japanese mainland to launch the B-24's but that damn fishing boat forced them to launch early. Surprised that the bombers were able to penetrate Japanese airspace unopposed.

Yes, a mere fishing boat that could have relayed the spotting of a carrier and it's location was the reason to launch early.

Japan had pretty much no air defenses that early in the War. And their radar, flak and fighter defences were never anything approaching British or German levels of effectiveness or density even in 44-45.

Correct, they had no real air defense at this point. Another reason to strike, for the propaganda win.

There might have been an issue re whether China had airfields that were capable of handling bombers, or were in range of Tokyo in early 1942. The AVG was a fighter-only outfit, IIRC.

In 1944, the US tried flying B-29's out of China to attack the major Japanese cities, but without a lot of success. The B-29 was super long range, certainly far longer than the B-25. Not sure if B-24's could have done the trip in 1942, but it would have taken time to transport them to China with full ground crews and supplies.

China was a curious theater during WW2, with the Americans dealing with both the Communists in Mao and the Nationalists in Chiang Kai Shek. I am rusty in this area, but had the Americans dealt solely with Mao, the use of China as a base may have been possible. Shek was non-committal and stalled the Americans, asking for more and more materiel to wage war against the Japanese, which they didn't really do, but the communists did. In the end, the Americans took the best means possible and one they could control for the most part.

 

[dirkd101]

I'd like to add to the theory that one carrier would have made to the outcome of the Pacific theater at that point in the war. There were many naval engagements in the Pacific after this raid and both sides got bloodied pretty badly. Credit has to be given to the IJN with regards to its strength in seamanship and in tactics. The IJN studied the British for many years and modeled their navy after the British. During WW1 the showed their mettle in battle and this carried over to their view that they were the navy to beat in WW2. They were a well run and very professional navy that was feared by the Americans, but by the same token, the Americans knew they had to beat them at some point.

 

[Brill]

Of course, liberals criticized the raid for bombing innocent civilians.

Roosevelt was fine with it. He had to drag conservative thinkers into the war.

 

[Aardvark154]

Roosevelt was fine with it. He had to drag conservative thinkers into the war.

That was only so far as the War in Europe, once Japan attacked there wasn't much disagreement about fighting back. What there was, however, was grave doubt as to whether the Government had allowed the U.S. to be attacked (which has been thoroughly disproved).


Remember too that the far left went through the contortions of the damned according to the dictates of the Soviets. First they were ardently anti-war then after the German invasion they were ardently pro-interventionist.

 

[SkyRider]

The IJN studied the British for many years and modeled their navy after the British.

Interesting that the IJN studied the British because the Brits never actually considered the value of carriers in naval engagements. The reason the British battle cruiser and battleship were sunk in the Battle of Singapore is because they had no air support.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Prince_of_Wales_and_Repulse

 

[dirkd101]

Interesting that the IJN studied the British because the Brits never actually considered the value of carriers in naval engagements. The reason the British battle cruiser and battleship were sunk in the Battle of Singapore is because they had no air support.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Prince_of_Wales_and_Repulse

The IJN studied British tactics in naval warfare, from the time they decided to build a navy, as they considered the British to be the best navy in the world. Their acceptance of naval air power I am not clear on at the moment. I have read some on the subject, but their reasoning isn't in the forefront of my memory. Their acceptance may have been along the lines of American thought on this, where Billy Mitchell and other WW1 vets tried to sell the idea of air power over naval power, by a show of bombing anchored ships with bombers after WW1. The thought about using naval air goes back further, with both Britain and the US trying out different ideas, one of them being the Flat Deck carrier, which was used in WW1. The rivalries between branches of service had much to do with keeping these things separate and stunting the growth of the idea of naval warfare, but not killing it entirely.

I would hazard a guess that the IJN studied what was happening elsewhere, with regards to the worlds biggest navies, as they did with their study of the British early on. By embracing this as being a part of a new naval concept, they must be given credit for, but the Americans had pretty much embraced it by this time too and that would be because they weren't belligerents at the time, so a knowledge of each other navies would be well known.