Trudeau would repeal c36

GPIDEAL

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Jun 27, 2010
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Wow. Your view of a country's government and it's responsibilities is so so sooooooo narrow.

You have a right to vote as you please....in this case...on a very very very insignificant topic. But go ahead.

No, it isn't narrow.

In the big picture, voting against Harper even if on this issue, could mean that he doesn't win by much, or loses more seats.

If the view is that having a Harper majority government is not in the best interests of the people of Canada, then being a single-issue advocate is a means to that end.

(I used to criticize single-issue advocates, but now I see that there is a place for them in a democracy, as has always been the case).
 

GPIDEAL

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Jun 27, 2010
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How can you say making all of us criminals with a stroke of a pen for consensual is insignificant?

Harpo , Mackay and Smith should be made insignificant by ousting them out of power!

You're view is equally valid and responsible.

After all, Hudak lost on a single issue. When Tory ran for Premier, he also lost on a single issue. Single issues rule!
 

stay

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No, it isn't narrow.

In the big picture, voting against Harper even if on this issue, could mean that he doesn't win by much, or loses more seats.

If the view is that having a Harper majority government is not in the best interests of the people of Canada, then being a single-issue advocate is a means to that end.

(I used to criticize single-issue advocates, but now I see that there is a place for them in a democracy, as has always been the case).
Don't most people vote on a single issue, that is " Am I doing well ". So why not, it may be short sighted because in four years the answer to the "am I doing well " may not be the same. Short sighted in voting in politics, just look at the last Ont election. They asked you after they pulledd your pants down, bent you over and .... Can we come back and give you some more.
 

GPIDEAL

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Jun 27, 2010
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Don't most people vote on a single issue, that is " Am I doing well ". So why not, it may be short sighted because in four years the answer to the "am I doing well " may not be the same. Short sighted in voting in politics, just look at the last Ont election. They asked you after they pulledd your pants down, bent you over and .... Can we come back and give you some more.

I can argue that the question "Am I doing well" is a loaded one - perhaps lumping in many single issues with the economy be the overriding one.
 

stay

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I can argue that the question "Am I doing well" is a loaded one - perhaps lumping in many single issues with the economy be the overriding one.
In my opinion most people look at themselves and not the economy per-say. So to them it is "I have a job, roof over the head, all is well" It is their world, their economic situation that influences them. Government around the world have been attacked, when you strip it all down you are left with $$$. The global turmoil has shown us this.

So don't feel like you are doing a disservice to yourself if you want to choose another single issue, I'm arguing many people have done that for years.

For myself, the erosion of personal freedoms
 

GPIDEAL

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Jun 27, 2010
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In my opinion most people look at themselves and not the economy per-say. So to them it is "I have a job, roof over the head, all is well" It is their world, their economic situation that influences them. Government around the world have been attacked, when you strip it all down you are left with $$$. The global turmoil has shown us this.

So don't feel like you are doing a disservice to yourself if you want to choose another single issue, I'm arguing many people have done that for years.

For myself, the erosion of personal freedoms
Perhaps they have, and there are many others like "Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't", or "I'm good but he scares me or is stupid".

Voting has been imperfect too (do the provincial liberals deserve a majority?). My friend used to say "the trouble with democracy is that everyone gets a vote".

I agree that it is definitely an erosion of personal freedoms and probably the most important criterion for this next election.

I remember voting for Mulroney because I believed in Free Trade as well as the economic validity of the GST to ameliorate exports.
 

stay

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Perhaps they have, and there are many others like "Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't", or "I'm good but he scares me or is stupid".

Voting has been imperfect too (do the provincial liberals deserve a majority?). My friend used to say "the trouble with democracy is that everyone gets a vote".

I agree that it is definitely an erosion of personal freedoms and probably the most important criterion for this next election.

I remember voting for Mulroney because I believed in Free Trade as well as the economic validity of the GST to ameliorate exports.
You may also remember a certain person promising to " tear up" an agreement, so you should keep that in mind.
I would also suggest that erosion of freedoms is not a made in Canada issue either. I have learned through my business associates around the world that it seems to be the same shit everywhere, just different barns.

Like I said the problem with this business is that it operates on a different level, extremely personal. Aside from the girls who are from bad to rotten apples you have the pimping aspect. So how does a government gain access to information to control pimping without infringing on the workers rights. Remember the crown needs solid evidence, the police need complaints to investigate. Sometime freedoms have to be forsaken to protect the weak.
 

TeasePlease

Cockasian Brother
Aug 3, 2010
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Perhaps they have, and there are many others like "Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't", or "I'm good but he scares me or is stupid".

Voting has been imperfect too (do the provincial liberals deserve a majority?). My friend used to say "the trouble with democracy is that everyone gets a vote".

I agree that it is definitely an erosion of personal freedoms and probably the most important criterion for this next election.

I remember voting for Mulroney because I believed in Free Trade as well as the economic validity of the GST to ameliorate exports.
The issue of personal freedoms extends far beyond C-36. Privacy rights have been greatly eroded under the Cons' watch, including wiretapping, digital security, searches of private property, etc. But as Stay points out, it's far from a Canadian issue. It's a global issue, and all done in the name of security and the greater good.

As for democracy, that's funny! I see it as a check and balance. Democracy inherently favours the masses, which in a capitalist economy means it favours the less/not wealthy. But, politics is driven by money, sooooooooo. I read a political columnist' analysis of the upcoming election recently. He said that one of Harper's key advantages is voter apathy. Con supporters are more apt to turn out and vote. So polls don't really tell the story. But, if for whatever reason, the Libs or NDP are able to mobilize their supporters on election day, Harper is screwed.
 

stay

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The last provincial election was the first time I didn't vote in 30+ years, I'm talking municipal, provincial, federal or even who was the best looking which I had to show up for the acceptance speech.
 

rhuarc29

Well-known member
Apr 15, 2009
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This is the first heartening thing I've heard Trudeau say about the law. The government has no business making laws based on ideology. It should always be evidence-based.
 

TeasePlease

Cockasian Brother
Aug 3, 2010
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This is the first heartening thing I've heard Trudeau say about the law. The government has no business making laws based on ideology. It should always be evidence-based.
You mean statistics, surveys and other objective, unimpeachable data? lol.

If you ask Harper/McKay, I'm sure they would say that C-36 is supported by plenty of evidence, as tendered by witnesses to the committee hearings.

I get what you mean. But Trudeau is just covering ass. Let's not forget that the accepts the same basic premise as the Cons on the harms of sex work. Those harms have ostensibly been objectively proven.
 

GPIDEAL

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Jun 27, 2010
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You may also remember a certain person promising to " tear up" an agreement, so you should keep that in mind.
I would also suggest that erosion of freedoms is not a made in Canada issue either. I have learned through my business associates around the world that it seems to be the same shit everywhere, just different barns.

Like I said the problem with this business is that it operates on a different level, extremely personal. Aside from the girls who are from bad to rotten apples you have the pimping aspect. So how does a government gain access to information to control pimping without infringing on the workers rights. Remember the crown needs solid evidence, the police need complaints to investigate. Sometime freedoms have to be forsaken to protect the weak.
Turner was a liar, and the Liberals never got rid of the GST either. Liars again. But they get away with it all the time.

Sometimes if you foresake freedoms, it hurts the weak too.
 

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
23,334
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The issue of personal freedoms extends far beyond C-36. Privacy rights have been greatly eroded under the Cons' watch, including wiretapping, digital security, searches of private property, etc. But as Stay points out, it's far from a Canadian issue. It's a global issue, and all done in the name of security and the greater good.

As for democracy, that's funny! I see it as a check and balance. Democracy inherently favours the masses, which in a capitalist economy means it favours the less/not wealthy. But, politics is driven by money, sooooooooo. I read a political columnist' analysis of the upcoming election recently. He said that one of Harper's key advantages is voter apathy. Con supporters are more apt to turn out and vote. So polls don't really tell the story. But, if for whatever reason, the Libs or NDP are able to mobilize their supporters on election day, Harper is screwed.

Yes, I agree and yes that's true.
 

legmann

Well-known member
Dec 2, 2001
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T.O.
You mean statistics, surveys and other objective, unimpeachable data? lol.
Yes, precisely. Data.

If you ask Harper/McKay, I'm sure they would say that C-36 is supported by plenty of evidence, as tendered by witnesses to the committee hearings.
Hardly objective or comprehensive. It's clear to most, that the Conservatives chose to listen only to who they wanted to, at both the draft stage and passage through the legislature. Even you must see that.
 

bobcat40

Member
Jan 25, 2006
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Well Statistics for anything can easily be biased and manipulated to support a particular cause. Governments and companies regularly manipulate and selectively use data to support what they want. The main problem with the approach as it relates to prostitution is that it is quite difficult to come up with
"solid data". The challenge of finding reliable data also a major hurdle for any court challenge. John's and prostitutes don't really participate in market surveys and it's not like there has been significant amounts of money dedicated to this area. Most people on this forum are only exposed to the "higher end prostitution" where women are doing their work willingly. How do we know how prevalent the sex work of the exploited is? We have just made our own generalizations but it's really hard to pinpoint anything factually.

With that all being said, I am strongly against C-36. Just playing devil's advocate here. I think the biggest challenge will be that it will take years of data to prove the effects of C36 before a solid court case can be made against it.
 

stay

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Well Statistics for anything can easily be biased and manipulated to support a particular cause. Governments and companies regularly manipulate and selectively use data to support what they want. The main problem with the approach as it relates to prostitution is that it is quite difficult to come up with
"solid data". The challenge of finding reliable data also a major hurdle for any court challenge. John's and prostitutes don't really participate in market surveys and it's not like there has been significant amounts of money dedicated to this area. Most people on this forum are only exposed to the "higher end prostitution" where women are doing their work willingly. How do we know how prevalent the sex work of the exploited is? We have just made our own generalizations but it's really hard to pinpoint anything factually.

With that all being said, I am strongly against C-36. Just playing devil's advocate here. I think the biggest challenge will be that it will take years of data to prove the effects of C36 before a solid court case can be made against it.
you hit the nail on the head. Members on this board have not seen the whole picture for the most part. Go down to the queen street mental hospital area and find out another side. Would most members here have crossed paths with the ladies of picton? It is the harm of the ladies in these places that is the issue, if you want to spread for $$$, it isn't my business. What becomes EVERYONE'S concern are the real victims. I HAVE NO CLUE HOW MANY ARE OUT THERE but as a society we should do better.
 
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rhuarc29

Well-known member
Apr 15, 2009
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Well Statistics for anything can easily be biased and manipulated to support a particular cause. Governments and companies regularly manipulate and selectively use data to support what they want.
Unfortunately that is true. Not only do you have studies being conducted by institutions with an agenda, but even when that's not the case you have people manipulating the stats (ie, including the neutrals one way or the other by manipulating the question, making mountains of molehills, etc.). It's gotten to the point where you can't trust stats any more. How do the masses acquire truth now? Not everyone has the wherewithal to think things through clearly and without bias.
 

TeasePlease

Cockasian Brother
Aug 3, 2010
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Unfortunately that is true. Not only do you have studies being conducted by institutions with an agenda, but even when that's not the case you have people manipulating the stats (ie, including the neutrals one way or the other by manipulating the question, making mountains of molehills, etc.). It's gotten to the point where you can't trust stats any more. How do the masses acquire truth now? Not everyone has the wherewithal to think things through clearly and without bias.
Not the least of which is the fact that we are dealing with a social science. We can (and do) employ empirical observation, but human behaviour is a complex beast. Isolating cause and effect is difficult, especially when we try to use real-world data.

All of which is to say - what conclusion do you want to support? I'll find you the data to support it :p
 
Ashley Madison
Toronto Escorts