Vimmy Ridge Anniversary..

[TQM]

look bozos,

This is pretty easy - http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0008376

The gains amounted to a few hundred yards - significant yes but at a terrible cost. The Canadians were put into the battle not because they were considered elite (yet), but because they were considered second class.

Read Berton's Vimy for more detail as to the value of the battle.

 

[papasmerf]

This is pretty easy - http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0008376

The gains amounted to a few hundred yards - significant yes but at a terrible cost. The Canadians were put into the battle not because they were considered elite (yet), but because they were considered second class.

Read Berton's Vimy for more detail as to the value of the battle.

Ya want to defeat a historical victory????


You are a POS who desreves to be flushed.
It is a shame your life will never amount to anythig. You have already admited defeat

 

[CapitalGuy]

This is pretty easy - http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0008376

The gains amounted to a few hundred yards - significant yes but at a terrible cost. The Canadians were put into the battle not because they were considered elite (yet), but because they were considered second class.

Read Berton's Vimy for more detail as to the value of the battle.

Did you even READ the link you posted?

"Canadians attacked together, and they achieved a magnificent victory, sweeping the Germans off the ridge. By April 14 they had gained more ground, more guns, and more prisoners than any previous British offensive had done. Canadian casualties mounted to 10 602, of which 3598 were killed. Nevertheless the sense of achievement and national pride created by this success gave the Canadians a great feeling of self-confidence. The Canadian Corps was to gain recognition as an elite corps."

Curious, too, that the suggested reading at that link is for Pierre Burton's "Vimy". Have you read Vimy, or are you simply passing on something you read on that one link that popped up on Google (which you apparently did not read). Also interesting that that one, very very brief web entry identifies that Vimy put the Canadian Corps on the path to becoming an elite force. So, what we've learned is, everything you know about Vimy, you learned from reading three paragraphs on that one web page you just looked up. And you still got it wrong.

You must be a Canadian - you're trying hard to re-label one of your country's greatest moments into a failure.

Anyhow, no sweat. You have identified yourself as a loser. TERB has taken note.

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

You must be a Canadian - you're trying hard to re-label one of your country's greatest moments into a failure.

LOL. It's a sad and classic example of the infamous Canadian inferiority complex.

Anyhow, no sweat. You have identified yourself as a loser. TERB has taken note.

I suspect he's trying to save face. Unfortunately for TQM, he keeps digging a bigger hole. Ironically enough, his digging techniques would have come in handy in the trenches in 1917.

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

Not quite true. It was used during the Somme campaign but with lesser effect because a lack of co-ordination. Many of the techniques used during the battle at Vimy were not developed by the Canadian Corps but they were used to much better effect.

True.

We did the same thing with Curling.

 

[TQM]

gentlemen,

find one sentence - one sentence that I've said that was false.

So far, I've claimed:

a) not much was gained
b) the cost was very high
c) there had been only two previous attempts on the Ridge.
d) Canadians were used because those in charge devalued Canadians.
e) It led to a great sense of Canadian nationalism.

I've nowhere denied it was a "victory". I've nowhere denied there weren't previous attempts.

Let me re-emphasize c). Canadians were given this task - make no mistake about it - because the Allies expected a loss - and better to lose some Canadians than British. Do you understand that? Do you need this explained?

After the battle, certainly, perceptions of Canadians, as a military force, changed. That in no way means Canada as seen as a strong military force - it never has been and never will be. All it means is that we weren't devalued anymore; we weren't treated as second class soldiers. So perceptions changed. Oh boy.

Vimy didn't win the war. Canadians at the time were impacted back home by the battle because the casualties were astonishing (for Canada, you idiots) and because, frankly, there really was no other major battle that Canadians had ever won. Yes - it was a major battle, so yes, it was a major victory. But lets not pretend it was the pivotal moment that led to overall victory in the war.

So - stop trying to deliberately misinterpret me - I'm not saying something bad about the battle or Canada or the Canadian Military. That is a figment of your imagination. There is a long history of mythologizing war. It shouldn't be surprising this battle is one such example.

If anything, what I've said should only outline to you the horrors of war - Canadians were put into this battle because they didn't count. The Australians had similar issues with the British at different times.

Go ahead and ban me.

 

[TQM]

another

nice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vimy_Ridge link for you.

 

[TQM]

Finally, consider this passage:

YMCA officer William Fingland wrote home that "of course there have been heavy losses but it was a great victory, and every widow or mother of a man who fell should feel proud and happy the rest of her days that her loved one was willing to give his life in the interest (of) liberty and democracy...." Percy McClare of the 24th Bn. in the 2nd Div. told his mother that he "was in the whole of that battle and it was Hell." But, he added, "I am glad to say that I was through it, as it will be one of the biggest things in Canadian history." Medical officer Harold McGill said to his fiancée that "It was a wonderful battle, the best show I have been in. Our men trimmed the Boche in fine shape and our losses were not heavy."

McGill was wrong and Fingland was correct, for the losses were terrible. Nursing Sister Clare Gass wrote in her diary on April 10 that "this morning hundreds of Canadian wounded admitted, so tired, but the majority with only slighter wounds." Five days later, she added that the "casualties though reported as small from last week's action have simply filled all the hospitals hereabouts to overflowing." The Canadian Corps suffered 10,602 casualties in the Vimy fighting, including 3,598 dead. The 4th Div., not surprisingly, had the most casualties with 4,401 of its infantry--or one in three--killed or wounded. Whatever else it was, Vimy was no walkover.

So what then was Vimy? The carefully planned and brilliantly fought set-piece battle was a triumph of combined arms that produced a 4,500-yard advance, the greatest by the Allies to that point. The victory demonstrated how much the Canadians had learned since the Ypres battles of April 1915, and it proved that the men of the corps were without peer.

Unfortunately, the Battle of Vimy Ridge--April 9-12, 1917--did not alter the course of the war. There was no attempt to exploit the breakthrough achieved by Byng's boys, no effort to send the cavalry streaming through the German lines. The enemy retreated a few miles to new positions and the struggle continued.

Vimy's transcendental importance was for Canada. It was a great victory achieved by the army of a nation that was only then becoming aware of its nationality. That a majority of the soldiers and the key staff officers were British-born made no difference. The victory mattered to the soldiers because it persuaded them that they were as good as they wanted to believe they were. It mattered to Canadians at home who felt that their sons and their country truly were special. And they were.

From this source: http://www.legionmagazine.com/features/special/07-03a.asp?id=print#5

I'd say the bunch of you owe me an apology.

 

[elmufdvr]

I thank those who give their lives for our freedom.. bless you and your loved ones... thank you for making Canada the best place to live and be free.... thank you.. thank you... bless you all...

 

[CapitalGuy]

You told lookingforitallthetime that he needs to get his hands on a reading comprehension book. You told me that my interpretation of facts was clouded by patriotism. Neither statement is founded and neither one of us had attacked you, but you acted childish and rudely by lashing out at us. So what do you expect will happen? And the subject of your pettiness has been an attempt to downplay one of Canada's greatest moments, on the very day that the sacrifices of the 3598 men who died at Vimy were being honoured. Good grief. But of course, my opinion is clouded by patriotism.

Truth is, you come across as a very insecure child who must always be seen to be right. Its crystal clear that everything you know about Vimy, you learned from two websites you've googled over the past two days - yet you must be seen to be right. You may not believe this, but no one cares about the debate. Its simply funny now, to watch you dig yourself into a more embarassing hole with every post you make. Are you still in high school or something?

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

find one sentence - one sentence that I've said that was false.

Since you asked........

So far, I've claimed:

a) not much was gained

False: The germans held the ridge since 1914. There was a huge tactical advantage in holding the ridge and the Germans realizing this, dug in like no other place along their line.

The Great War was fought incorrectly by both sides. The advances in weaponry were not considered and the war was fought along lines in a traditional manner that failed to incorporate weapons advances. Because of a failure to adjust tactics to suit these advances in technology, neither side made any significant advanace during the entire course of the war.

The capture of Vimy Ridge was a huge gain in a war that was plagued with insignificant territorial gain by either side.

b) the cost was very high

False: Although losing only one of those fine Canadians in battle was a loss, the enemy suffered greater losses. The Canadians suffered 10,000 casualties vs. 20,000 casualties for the Germans. What is most remarkable about this is that the Germans had a huge tactical advantage of the higher ground. Any battle commander will tell you that holding the higher ground almost always gaurantees victory (Pickett's charge at Gettysburg comes to mind).

In the 2 years since Germany occupied the ridge, the French suffered 150,000 casualties trying to take it back. Although significant, the Canadian cost was not very high in comparison.

c) there had been only two previous attempts on the Ridge.

False:The French tried repeatedly to take the ridge since 1914. Hence the 150,000 casualties.

d) Canadians were used because those in charge devalued Canadians.

I'm not privy to any information that proves British command devalued Canadians, are you?

e) It led to a great sense of Canadian nationalism.

True: You finally got one right.

 

[TQM]

well looking,

Again, I've provided you with a direct passage to say the capture of the ridge was of little value in the advancement of the war. Where's the great tactical advantage if it was never used?

Attempts to take the ridge - I guess I could be wrong, but I think what you call "many attempts" I call one sustained attempt (by the French). I'll gladly give this point to you. (For that matter, I don't think the British actually made much of an "attempt.")

Lastly - I said the cost was very high - you dispute this pointing out the cost to the Germans was higher. Well, yes, the cost to the Germans was higher, but the cost to us was still very high, and the advantage gained turned out to be of little use (as the passage quoted clearly illustrates).

And here's the thing: everyone keeps talking about how the Ridge was of "great military importance." In some sense that's right. But the fact is, the Allies never used it as such.

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

And here's the thing: everyone keeps talking about how the Ridge was of "great military importance." In some sense that's right. But the fact is, the Allies never used it as such.

I realize what you're saying but the nature of the war was that neither side gained any significant territorial advantage once the Germans dug in.

It's not a coincidence that a German corporal who was in those trenches at the time, brought in the Blitzkreig style of war 30 years later. He and his generals saw the folly in fighting a trench war considering the technological advances in the war machine.

 

[mmouse]

TQM has a point. I went to school in another country, and while we learned about WWI and the battle of the Somme, Jutland, U-boats etc, I never heard about Vimy until I came to Canada. There are thousands (if not millions) events of profound importance in WWI, but if you had to rank them objectively, Vimy was not exceptional. For better or worse, the reason so much significance is placed on Vimy is that it helped define Canada as a nation.

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

TQM has a point. I went to school in another country, and while we learned about WWI and the battle of the Somme, Jutland, U-boats etc, I never heard about Vimy until I came to Canada. There are thousands (if not millions) events of profound importance in WWI, but if you had to rank them objectively, Vimy was not exceptional. For better or worse, the reason so much significance is placed on Vimy is that it helped define Canada as a nation.

I guess that would depend on which country you were schooled in.

The countries that were involved in the war certainly considered it a significant victory. Even the Germans.

Watching the ceremony at Vimy yesterday, the grandeur of the memorial seems to lend to the fact that others considered the taking of Vimy Ridge a substantial event as well.