Voting Fraud

[slowpoke]

The various U.S. states probably should have some process for the rehabilitation of the voting rights of convicted felons. However, I do not feel that it should be "automatic" e.g. walk out the prison door and be able to vote or be able to vote five years after you walk out the prison door. The loss of rights as a convicted felon should serve as a possible deterrent. You should have to prove your rehabilitation and reentry into civil society - many do so rehabilitate, however, others do not and society at large should be rewarding the former rather than the later.

I don't see the point of removing a felon's right to vote. The value of democracy is that it represents the full cross section of society - warts an all. So any deviation from that overriding principle results in a watered down "almost" version of democracy which is now susceptible to further shaping by those in power. If felons and mental patients can be excluded, why not extend that to those with too many traffic violations, overdue mortgages, unpaid child support and so on? It is better to just accept the fact that there will be people voting who probably don't deserve to vote. This is one of those cases where the so-called remedy is far riskier than the disease.

If someone is found guilty of a criminal offence, the judge deciding on an appropriate penalty is already factoring in a great many of the negative repercussions that go hand in hand with the conviction itself and with the types of punishment available. Taking away the vote just adds additional fallout for the judge to reckon with. We need more simplicity and clarity - not more strings. We especially don't want some judge to decide that the prisoner is free to go because a lifelong ban on voting is punishment enough.

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

I agree with slowpoke.

The only criteria one should have to meet to vote is: legal age and citizenship.

 

[danmand]

I don't see the point of removing a felon's right to vote. The value of democracy is that it represents the full cross section of society - warts an all. So any deviation from that overriding principle results in a watered down "almost" version of democracy which is now susceptible to further shaping by those in power. If felons and mental patients can be excluded, why not extend that to those with too many traffic violations, overdue mortgages, unpaid child support and so on? It is better to just accept the fact that there will be people voting who probably don't deserve to vote. This is one of those cases where the so-called remedy is far riskier than the disease.

If someone is found guilty of a criminal offence, the judge deciding on an appropriate penalty is already factoring in a great many of the negative repercussions that go hand in hand with the conviction itself and with the types of punishment available. Taking away the vote just adds additional fallout for the judge to reckon with. We need more simplicity and clarity - not more strings. We especially don't want some judge to decide that the prisoner is free to go because a lifelong ban on voting is punishment enough.

You are an idealist. (which is good in my book)

The ruling classes since the beginning of time has inevitably worked to restrict influence over public matters to themselves. The ways of doing that are only limited by human imagination. Property owners only, men only, gentry only, white people only, permanent residents only, no criminals,
over 25 only, registered party voters only, etc etc. The british and north american voting system (Winner in each riding) also restrict influence to the ruling class.

It is always interesting to note, that when one of the ruling class run into one of the restrictions, the rules are bent. Witnes GWB who has a criminal record.

 

[LancsLad]

We have our own brand of this in Canada. the voter enumeration and screening process is a joke.

Remember back in the 80's with the huge voter fraud in the York North riding. Remember the lib candidate with the fleet of intimdating cement trucks at their non meeting, yeah he won.The lieberal Bevilaqua had his people enumerate hundreds of headstones in the Aurora area and other places in Canadas most populous riding, and surprisingly many of them voted. Plus the RO who was a friend let his people into the ballot box storage area. Big no no.

I was part of the group that operated under police supervision to examine all the boxes for tampering and reconcile ballots in the boxes to the DRO's count sheets. Surprise, surprise discrepancies were found.

I clearly remember this POS running in the halls of the Newmarket court house yelling at his people, " who the fuck let this happen, it was mine"

New by election called but the fix was in.

 

[slowpoke]

We have our own brand of this in Canada. the voter enumeration and screening process is a joke.

Remember back in the 80's with the huge voter fraud in the York North riding. Remember the lib candidate with the fleet of intimdating cement trucks at their non meeting, yeah he won.The lieberal Bevilaqua had his people enumerate hundreds of headstones in the Aurora area and other places in Canadas most populous riding, and surprisingly many of them voted. Plus the RO who was a friend let his people into the ballot box storage area. Big no no.

I was part of the group that operated under police supervision to examine all the boxes for tampering and reconcile ballots in the boxes to the DRO's count sheets. Surprise, surprise discrepancies were found.

I clearly remember this POS running in the halls of the Newmarket court house yelling at his people, " who the fuck let this happen, it was mine"

New by election called but the fix was in.

So Harper is going to put safeguards in place right away to prevent this from ever happening again - right?

 

[LancsLad]

So Harper is going to put safeguards in place right away to prevent this from ever happening again - right?

Can't be done. Due to political correctness in Canada no politician is going to call for a true clean up of the system. they would be too scared to be called the racist word.

Needs to be done though.

 

[slowpoke]

Can't be done. Due to political correctness in Canada no politician is going to call for a true clean up of the system. they would be too scared to be called the racist word.

Needs to be done though.

For starters, it wouldn't be too difficult to have someone with the power to lay charges do a little quality control on the work of those enumerators. If a crooked enumerator is putting pets and dead people on the voter list, surely a system of simple spot checks would soon land the enumerator in the slammer. Lets see, I have this list of addresses and each address has some names associated with it. What to do...what to do?? I know!!! We can do a phone survey or a walking survey of those properties and double check that those people actually live there. We could even run the new list against the one from the last enumeration so we focus a little more on the new names on the list instead of the ones who've been there, like, forever. How racist is that? I'm sure there are a great many equally simple solutions that Elections Canada could do once Harper hands them a bit more money for enforcement.

 

[LancsLad]

For starters, it wouldn't be too difficult to have someone with the power to lay charges do a little quality control on the work of those enumerators. If a crooked enumerator is putting pets and dead people on the voter list, surely a system of simple spot checks would soon land the enumerator in the slammer. Lets see, I have this list of addresses and each address has some names associated with it. What to do...what to do?? I know!!! We can do a phone survey or a walking survey of those properties and double check that those people actually live there. We could even run the new list against the one from the last enumeration so we focus a little more on the new names on the list instead of the ones who've been there, like, forever. How racist is that? I'm sure there are a great many equally simple solutions that Elections Canada could do once Harper hands them a bit more money for enforcement.

Agreed, in principle, but you are assuming that the gov't ( any gov't ) will look at this from a business perspective.

The cry from the lib socialist media about disenfranchising the poor and immigrants would be deafening.

.

 

[danmand]

Agreed, in principle, but you are assuming that the gov't ( any gov't ) will look at this from a business perspective.

The cry from the lib socialist media about disenfranchising the poor and immigrants would be deafening.

.

About half of the voters in Canada is disenfranchised already. I see no media frenzy about that.

The truth is of course that the ruling class is very happy with the low turnout, the absence of proportional representation, and the general lethargy about politics. See how easy and regularly politicians move from the conservative party to the liberal party and vice versa. Martin could just as well have led the conservative party and would gladly have done so. Likewise with Harper. It is only naive voters like you who believe that there is a difference between the parties. Or are you just pretending?

 

[slowpoke]

Agreed, in principle, but you are assuming that the gov't ( any gov't ) will look at this from a business perspective.

The cry from the lib socialist media about disenfranchising the poor and immigrants would be deafening.

.

What poor / immigrants? Election fraud is usually an inside job with some politico paying his girlfriend's idiot cousin to go out and fudge the voter list. Getting the goldfish & headstone names off the voter list isn't disenfranchising anyone except maybe the goldfish.

 

[LancsLad]

What poor / immigrants? Election fraud is usually an inside job with some politico paying his girlfriend's idiot cousin to go out and fudge the voter list. Getting the goldfish & headstone names off the voter list isn't disenfranchising anyone except maybe the goldfish.

I'm talking age qualification, citizenship status and actual voter identification.

 

[LancsLad]

About half of the voters in Canada is disenfranchised already. I see no media frenzy about that.

The truth is of course that the ruling class is very happy with the low turnout, the absence of proportional representation, and the general lethargy about politics. See how easy and regularly politicians move from the conservative party to the liberal party and vice versa. Martin could just as well have led the conservative party and would gladly have done so. Likewise with Harper. It is only naive voters like you who believe that there is a difference between the parties. Or are you just pretending?

Which half are you talking about, thats a big number.

I'm hardly naive. I do try to be hopeful for the future but always loose that when I see the sh*t that happens.

 

[danmand]

Which half are you talking about, thats a big number.

I'm hardly naive. I do try to be hopeful for the future but always loose that when I see the sh*t that happens.

The official voter turnout, as a % of people on the voting lists, hover around 60%. As there is a considerable number of people not allowed to vote, the real number is likely close to 50%.

 

[LancsLad]

The official voter turnout, as a % of people on the voting lists, hover around 60%. As there is a considerable number of people not allowed to vote, the real number is likely close to 50%.

Thats not disenfranchised, thats called apathy.

I always vote .

 

[danmand]

Thats not disenfranchised, thats called apathy.

I always vote .

Call it what you will, the result is the same. It keeps the ruling class in power.

 

[slowpoke]

I'm talking age qualification, citizenship status and actual voter identification.

If the enumeration was done properly, we'd have an accurate list of eligible voters. Beyond that, it shouldn't be that hard to verify that the person voting is the same person who was enumerated and is on the list. If the process ruffles a few feathers, that's too bad. It costs what it costs. We've sent people off to die for this kind of freedom so we shouldn't be worried about a few tears on election day.

 

[LancsLad]

If the enumeration was done properly, we'd have an accurate list of eligible voters. Beyond that, it shouldn't be that hard to verify that the person voting is the same person who was enumerated and is on the list. If the process ruffles a few feathers, that's too bad. It costs what it costs. We've sent people off to die for this kind of freedom so we shouldn't be worried about a few tears on election day.

Exactly.


I agree.

 

[onthebottom]

Ordinarily I would agree with you, but the Republicans have been pulling stunts of this kind for years.

It's not the system, it's people who are gaming the system to supress votes.

The other day, a voting fraud case in Minnesota brought by the USA was summarily thrown out of court by three appeals court judges (2 of them Republicans) as being wholly without merit. The USA in question didn't even have the guts to attend the dressing down that the Appeals Court gave to his assistant.

And the dead have been voting in Chicago for decades.....

OTB

 

[lookingforitallthetime]

And the dead have been voting in Chicago for decades.....

OTB

What happens in 1960 if Illinois' electoral votes went to Nixon?

Papa Joe and Sam Giancana brought those ones home for JFK.

 

[LancsLad]

What happens in 1960 if Illinois' electoral votes went to Nixon?

Papa Joe and Sam Giancana brought those ones home for JFK.

For the dems that truly is " an inconvenient truth".