When in doubt, ask on TERB!!!

[The Cunning Linguist]

Topic - salary negotiation:Moving to a new company.

The situation - after nine years at my current company, I've been head-hunted to join a customer's(and competitor in some ways) company. I'm not happy with my current compensation, and I detest the person in the second layer of management above me. My current supervisor is a pretty good guy, but I still have to deal with this ass-kissing corporate shill from time to time.

I've had two interviews, and have just been offered the job. I've not yet seen a compensation package from them, but I made it clear what I was looking for financially, and that number did not seem to be a problem.

If I leave, I'll be giving up 9 years seniority, 4 weeks vacation, the respect of my peers and colleagues, and, if I was let go for some reason, a minimum of 18 weeks of severance. This will be a new position, created to take over some of the work load from the existing employee in this department. However, since the economy is going in the toilet, all this new work may dry up. Is it feasible to ask for a condition of employment that, if a shortage of work happens, say during the first year of employment, that they would be obligated to pay me 18 weeks in a severance package? Clearly state that it would only be in a "lay-off" type situation, not a dismissal because of performance or other reasons.

As for vacation time, I'm pretty sure they will offer 3 weeks to start...can I bargain them up to 4 weeks?

I feel they really want me...as soon as I interviewed they took down their job listing on Workopolis. And some employee's of this company which I interact with in my current job are already welcoming me(confidentiality) to the fold.

And..as a final question...is it bad form to use a letter of offer from another company to enter into salary negociations with your current employer? What if I give notice, and they make a counter offer? We're all replaceable, but my leaving will leave a huge hole in my department.

 

[hunter001]

The vacation thing should be an easy thing to bargain for. The 18 weeks severance... good luck with that. Instead of the severance you might consider asking for a signing bonus to offset your lost severance at your current company. You might also consider negotiating for upgraded severance and signing bonus.

 

[tightfit]

is it bad form to accept a job and then go back and renegotiate with your existing company...hell yes...If you are in talks about leaving your existing position then there is something that has got you to that place..If you think you are going to get more out of the company you are presently employed by your wrong..most good companies will get pissed and then look for ways to get rid of you. (i think it is an ego thing). Some might offer a raise, but i can assure you, that will be the last one you see. If you are unhappy with your current situation it is best to leave it on good terms rather than have them think that the money is the issue you are leaving even if it really is. As for the headhunter that got you the job in the first place...some of them work really hard to get you that job interview and you will only piss them off for any future opportunities. The best advice is to do what you feel is right. If you are happy at your current job then quit the bs and stay there. If on the other hand you want to challenge yourself further then take to plunge..but be upfront and honest with all parties...if your worried about being let go do to work, then by all means put a clause in your contract stating you would require compensation if you are let go..most good companies will acknowledge your request as a guarantee based on performance and accept your request.

 

[RTRD]

I would agree witht his...

The vacation thing should be an easy thing to bargain for. The 18 weeks severance... good luck with that. Instead of the severance you might consider asking for a signing bonus to offset your lost severance at your current company. You might also consider negotiating for upgraded severance and signing bonus.

...the vacation thing is a simple exception to policy, requiring a signature from whomever is required. Easily negotiated, and this is the time to do it...after they have made the offer, but before you accept.

The severance thing - yes, you can ask...pretty much in the terms you used here ("economy is in trouble, I am giving up seniority and rapport with management, coming into a 'last in' situation...what can you give me as sort of a 'backstop' if there is 'right sizing' or a reorganization")...but depending on what level you are in the company (you sound like 1st or 2nd level management at the most...using terms like "supervisor"), you aren't going to get it. As much as they like you, there are others with your skill set in this economy...and no reason for them to make a commitment to you in an uncertain future climate.

If you were going for a rather senior position, and your skills were truly unique in the marketplace, you could get it (it isn't unheard of), but based on what you have shared so far...I don't think so.

 

[cute-bald]

No perfect situation................

there is always pros & cons. You have to decide what risks you want to take inorder to get potential gains. By all means negotiate with the possible new employer to minimize the negatives & then size up the situation before you descide.

 

[The Cunning Linguist]

To clarify to tightfit - I have not accepted any offer at this time...I have not seen a compensation package, but I have an email offering me the position.

To MLAM - actually, my skill set is pretty unique in this economy as I work in a pretty specialized industry, and one of the reasons I'm being offered this position is because of the knowledge I bring with me. I can actually bring business with me from the company I now work for, to this new company. And no, I'm not currently management, although I did accept, and then resign a management position because of all the corporate BS, backstabbing, finger pointing and blame laying. The fact they let me keep my job, rather than ushering me out the door after stepping down, I think, speaks volumes to my value to this organization. If they had turfed me, their business would have suffered immensely. There is, quite literally, no one there who knows what I know, and I've made damn sure I've kept it that way. But, I appreciate your comments, as they were only made based on my opening post.

I'll post more once I have an offer in my hands....this may all be moot.

 

[RTRD]

Well...

To MLAM - actually, my skill set is pretty unique in this economy as I work in a pretty specialized industry, and one of the reasons I'm being offered this position is because of the knowledge I bring with me. I can actually bring business with me from the company I now work for, to this new company. And no, I'm not currently management, although I did accept, and then resign a management position because of all the corporate BS, backstabbing, finger pointing and blame laying. The fact they let me keep my job, rather than ushering me out the door after stepping down, I think, speaks volumes to my value to this organization. If they had turfed me, their business would have suffered immensely. There is, quite literally, no one there who knows what I know, and I've made damn sure I've kept it that way. But, I appreciate your comments, as they were only made based on my opening post.

I'll post more once I have an offer in my hands....this may all be moot.

...if you have highly technical skills...the you are right - different rules apply.

But my observation has been that even people who were highly valued didn't get certain perks unless they were at certain levels of management, because it sets precedent...starting with your boss wanting to know how come nobody is guaranteeing him a certain amount of severance. If you have peers and the word gets out...not good. If your boss (assuming he is not senior management) objects and tries to twist arms...not good.

Really, they will give you more salary...a fair amount more...because they know that sort of thing doesn't get out (people don't talk about their paychecks...especially here in Canada), before they set a precedent. That is just how business works.

And...if your skills are as unique as you say, and you really can bring business...then you should be able to demand an appropriate salary to compensate for not getting that promised severance. And BTW....that is what you'd WANT to do...demanding something you might not ever use is not nearly as good as getting something...something that pays off from now until (because all further salary increases will be on top of what you negotiate now).

BTW....after you get as much money as you can from a salary stand point - then hit them for the signing bonus...again, better to actually get something in hand versus something you might never use...and a signing bonus probably will not be precedent setting...in fact...if *I* were you...I'd use the same rational that you were going to use for the severance to ask for a signing bonus...because if you ask for the severance and they say "no", then asking for the signing bonus will make it seem like ALL you care about is money.

 

[CUTTERBUCK]

Stay where you are and be happy you have a damn job.

 

[Hotdog]

And..as a final question...is it bad form to use a letter of offer from another company to enter into salary negociations with your current employer? What if I give notice, and they make a counter offer? We're all replaceable, but my leaving will leave a huge hole in my department.

Yes, it's bad form to use the letter of offer from the other employer, but I think it's ok to accept a counter offer if your current employer makes one, especially if you haven't signed anything with the new employer.

 

[Vegas]

I think the underlying question in here that might be the crux of the whole thread is "Is this a good time to be changing jobs?"

In the package you have now you'd be giving up assured 18 weeks of severance and seniority putting you into the "last in and first out" category.

It never hurts to ask ... You may not recieve though , and by the sounds of it you'd be filling a position which is necessary to the operation since it's in backlog with the current staffing they have. There should be some comfort in that they are looking to hire during the downturn. Maybe suggest something below the 18 weeks, to offer some give and take and that may show a sign that you are looking for stability and long term. Possibly make some sort of deal of an enhanced severance if your services are terminated by them in less than X number of years employment and then at that point the usual severance package would be appropriate.

Smart Employers will be aware of short-term and long term needs, keep contract lengths to as minimal as possible and try to soften their blow in regards to layoffs. It's also a time that I've seen companies bail out on top heavy management systems regardless of the severance packages and cuting their losses now to prevent larger losses in the future when money is even tighter. If they are looking at long-term then a minimum severance package may not be an issue if the language of the offer works for both you and them.

The thread hit a chord with me as I'm in a paralell situation only it's within the same company and different branches. A different geographic region would like to have me in their location and I would lose seniority during a time of possible cutbacks. There's no severance package, however there is something called "bumping" that I have as a way of not being forced out of work due to realignment, job dissolution or layoffs which will not be lost if I make the move. I'd like the new position but concerned about job security.

Only you know what's best for you though ... but food for thought for everyone

 

[gww]

You might also want to make sure you don't have something in your current employment agreement that says you can't go to competitor or take customers or whatever.