Why no on going BP oil spill thread ??

[Yoga Face]

We have :

- soap opera intrigue and cover up

- conspiracy theories

- possible greatest eco disaster ever that may change energy future of mankind as this forces showdown with green energy

- corporate malfeasance.

- heroic engineering attempts

- useless oil skimming all for public show

I mean fuck, they would not let the survivors see a doctor until they signed a release form after staying awake for 48 hours and they will not even commit to paying the survivors full wage

 

[fuji]

There's one over in the politics forum I think. The reason why it doesn't generate a lot of activity is there seems to be no debate, no disagreement--every single person thinks BP are lying scum who should be sued into bankruptcy. There's a surprising consensus around the point.

Well maybe there is SOME disagreement--I think a few people want them taken out and shot.

 

[Yoga Face]

There's one over in the politics forum I think. The reason why it doesn't generate a lot of activity is there seems to be no debate, no disagreement--every single person thinks BP are lying scum who should be sued into bankruptcy. There's a surprising consensus around the point.

Well maybe there is SOME disagreement--I think a few people want them taken out and shot.

Just the engineering attempts to stop it along with the clean up, damages and alternative energies are worth an on going thread

 

[Blue-Spheroid]

BP are lying scum who should be sued into bankruptcy. There's a surprising consensus around the point.

That's hardly accurate.

First of all, BP are no more lying scum than any other oil company. They've responded much more co-operatively than Exxon did after the Valdez spill, for example. I think that the organization as a whole recognizes that their only chance to survive as a corporate entity is to be seen to be doing the right thing in this situation. From the top level, the cheif executives have take this approach, however, there are many middle managers in the organization that have, for years, been trained to squeeze every cent out of every transaction and they are responding reflexively with this attitude despite the unusual circumstances. When inappropriate contract clauses or apparent nickel and dimeing on salaries is revealed, the root cause is usually some dim middle manager who followed the usual pattern without thinking.

However, it's still true that the oil industry in general has as its primary and most important goal to make as much money out of oil as possible; full stop. Any spin suggesting that they care about anything else is just PR and not part of their true motivation. Sure, it's necessary to pay lip service to the environment and pretend to care about safety to be successful in this business. But recent events (as well as many other past examples) show only too clearly that any pretence of responsible behaviour is only skin deep.

As for bankruptcy, don't hold your breath. The cost of cleaning this mess up, and BP will pay their bill in the end, will be a mere fraction of what they earn this year and won't even lead to a non-profitable quarter. The biggest loss to BP is that they can't sell the oil from that well and that's going to hurt their bottom line much more than the cost of cleaning up the mess. There will likely be lawsuits for years to come but that will merely ensure that there are no layoffs in BP's legal department and won't really impact the company in any significant way.

 

[Yoga Face]

That's hardly accurate.

First of all, BP are no more lying scum than any other oil company. They've responded much more co-operatively than Exxon did after the Valdez spill,

I have yet to see BP state they were incompetent and knew of potential problems with such scenarios as well completely failing to invest in clean up technology that works

They continually downplayed the extent of the leak and are in Washington stating it was not their responsibility because they did not own the rig as they leased out drilling rights

Exxon oil spill, which BP was tangently involved in, has never and will never compensate the community it destroyed and BP learned from this and I suspect BP lawyers are now driving around the Gulf Coast getting fishermen to sign liability waivers for peanuts

 

[fuji]

First of all, BP are no more lying scum than any other oil company.

When they proposed this drill site they filed documents claiming that they could contain any resulting leak. In retrospect it's plain they have pretty much no idea how to do that, and never really did.

As for bankruptcy, don't hold your breath. The cost of cleaning this mess up, and BP will pay their bill in the end, will be a mere fraction of what they earn this year and won't even lead to a non-profitable quarter.

I'm of the opinion that they should not merely pay for the cleanup, but replace all the profits lost by impacted industries like shrimping and fishing, and furthermore they should compensate the voters of Louisiana and other states for the environmental damage. In addition they should pay punitive damages for having filed fraudulent documents with the regulators claiming that they would be able to contain any leak.

The only way that we are going to ensure that there are no more leaks like this is to make an example of BP. Bankrupting them would not be all that bad--the assets could be sold off to another operator so that world production isn't really impacted. The shareholders would learn a lesson and future regulatory filings may contain just a wee bit more honesty than BP's did.

 

[Blue-Spheroid]

The only way that we are going to ensure that there are no more leaks like this is to make an example of BP. Bankrupting them would not be all that bad--the assets could be sold off to another operator so that world production isn't really impacted. The shareholders would learn a lesson and future regulatory filings may contain just a wee bit more honesty than BP's did.

You obviously have no idea just how much money oil companies make and, as a consequence, just how powerful they are.

 

[fuji]

You obviously have no idea just how much money oil companies make and, as a consequence, just how powerful they are.

A fine of around $100 billion ought to cover it. BP is worth $146 billion. That leaves them a little bit of the pie.

 

[Yoga Face]

A fine of around $100 billion ought to cover it. BP is worth $146 billion. That leaves them a little bit of the pie.

Charge the executives with criminal charges and then give them life with Bubba

There must be some criminal charges that could be laid here

O'Bama where are you ?? Taking publicity photos as you fly around the Gulf ???
You already admitted regulatory agencies are not doing their job therefore they are all unsafe !!!
Take charge man
Close the gulf down

 

[fuji]

Charge the executives with criminal charges and then give them life with Bubba

That won't really cut it. In fact, that will probably result in a rise of executive compensation at oil companies--to compensate them for their risk of jail time.

Unless you make the owners suffer--the shareholders--nothing will change.

 

[Yoga Face]

That won't really cut it. In fact, that will probably result in a rise of executive compensation at oil companies--to compensate them for their risk of jail time.

Unless you make the owners suffer--the shareholders--nothing will change.

I disagree

Hard jail time and life ban from ever being on a board ( like they get banned from Wall street ) and forfeit their shares ( they made this money with criminal behaviour ) will make them change


They are the highest paid workers in our society and control our future therefore we must be as demanding as possible

If they are not superstars intellectually and emotionally then get rid of them as there are plently of brilliant people around with ethics and they should be designing the future of all earth species (not greedy capitalists lying pigs with scum bag lawyers)

 

[fuji]

Hard jail time and life ban from ever being on a board ( like they get banned from Wall street ) and forfeit their shares ( they made this money with criminal behaviour ) will make them change

Sure, the ones you catch would be absolutely screwed. The ones you DON'T catch will demand higher salaries to compensate them for the chance of being caught. Many of them will win that bet. So long as it's profitable for the shareholders they will stand ready to pay the higher salaries. At the end of the day if you don't make the shareholders suffer they will continue to buy executives that are willing to play dirty.

 

[Yoga Face]

Sure, the ones you catch would be absolutely screwed. The ones you DON'T catch will demand higher salaries to compensate them for the chance of being caught. Many of them will win that bet. So long as it's profitable for the shareholders they will stand ready to pay the higher salaries. At the end of the day if you don't make the shareholders suffer they will continue to buy executives that are willing to play dirty.

Actually, there are great executives around with ethics and genius.

Then there are the execs at the tobacco firms, Exxon, BP, Wall Street ....


What is lacking here is ethics and competency

Just because you can run a company does not mean you have the competence to direct the course of human history and that is the power these fellows have and we never elected any of them

They were chosen because of their ability to discharge their legal responsibilities to make the highest profit possible for their shareholders

Maybe we should rethink the corporate structure and how they have more legal rights than a human being

 

[dj1470]

There is.
https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?287552-BP-Deep-Water-60-Minutes-and.-.-.-.-.-negligence

 

[jwmorrice]

Sure, the ones you catch would be absolutely screwed. The ones you DON'T catch will demand higher salaries to compensate them for the chance of being caught. Many of them will win that bet. So long as it's profitable for the shareholders they will stand ready to pay the higher salaries. At the end of the day if you don't make the shareholders suffer they will continue to buy executives that are willing to play dirty.

BP will probably tie things up in court for a decade or so and then pay a few billions. I doubt any government, particularly that of the oil-hungry US, would really want to disrupt oil exploration and production with massive penalties against a major player.

jwm

 

[fuji]

BP will probably tie things up in court for a decade or so and then pay a few billions. I doubt any government, particularly that of the oil-hungry US, would really want to disrupt oil exploration and production with massive penalties against a major player.

jwm

Ideally you bring the hammer down fast and hard, liquidate the company, and sell the operations off to other players so that nothing is really disrupted. The shareholders get zero dollars, and exploration and production more or less continue as they were. Except, of course, that the shareholders of other firms will realize that their exploration and development efforts need to smarten up a bit, and they will make sure that next time there's a leak they have a credible plan in place to deal with it.

 

[jwmorrice]

Ideally you bring the hammer down fast and hard, liquidate the company, and sell the operations off to other players so that nothing is really disrupted. The shareholders get zero dollars, and exploration and production more or less continue as they were. Except, of course, that the shareholders of other firms will realize that their exploration and development efforts need to smarten up a bit, and they will make sure that next time there's a leak they have a credible plan in place to deal with it.

Ain't gonna happen, is it?

jwm

 

[CapitalGuy]

There was no oil spill. It is all an Al Gore conspiracy - totally faked, with the cooperation of Steven Spielberg.

 

[fuji]

Wow what a naive statement --- I guess you're not a shareholder, or a direct/indirect employee or a shareholder/employee of the many Corporations that rely on BP business.

I invite you to look at how the same thing was done for several other fairly large companies. So long as you sell the cohesive business units off as blocks operations don't really stop. One relatively harmless way of killing the shareholders while saving the company would be to wipe them out entirely and auction the entire company off to the highest bidder. The company itself would remain unscathed while the shareholders would be annihilated.

First of all Fuji (aka TVI) we know very little on what caused this problem in the first place --- what we do know that this accident happened while the well was being decommissioned and capped, perhaps they knew it was a potential future problem and they were fixing it in a vain attempt at preventing this particular disaster (playing devil's advocate here) --- right know they are too busy limiting this disaster but the time will come to dissect what happened here and put in place preventive actions.

At some level that's all irrelevant. They filed papers with the regulator claiming that they would be able to respond effectively to a leak, and they plainly had no fucking idea how to do that.

I agree with the point that they are politically well connected and that the right thing probably won't be done, but it is pretty clear how it could be done, and what could be done, if there were the political will to do the right thing.

In any case, whether it's this way or some other, the shareholders need to bleed badly. There is no other way that incidents such as this one will be prevented in the future. Regulation can only accomplish so much. At the end of the day there has to be a profit/fear-of-loss motive for the company to conduct operations in a safe way.

 

[jwmorrice]

...Hell, even the rather rash idea of Congress to remove caps on liability is a hornets nest of problems in that if that amount is bumped up then it would freeze out small competitors leaving only the very largest firms able to drill in what gives the US nearly 30% of it's oil.


kf1

If a small company can't meet the liability requirements, why would we want them to be involved in such sensitive operations?

jwm