Workplace crush

[sempel]

I know Don has said thanks for the responses so this no longer applies to him but anyone else in general who might encounter the situation.

No, she doesn't. People shouldn't be cowed by what's going on with "MeToo".

This assumes that she does not report in any way to you and you don't have any power over her promotions or evaluations. THAT would be inappropriate. This also assumes the OP isn't creeping around her desk all the time, or peeping at her all day. Any HR department worth its salt can separate the wheat from the chaff. Unless there is a specific company policy about "dating" co-workers (and try to define "dating") then you would not get into any trouble by politely and respectfully asking a co-worker out for a daytime coffee or even a casual lunch. It's when the co-worker says "No" but you don't get the message and continue to ask that it becomes harassment. But once, done casually, politely and without pressure? Not a problem. Co-workers go out for coffee or lunch all the time. Doesn't even have to be a date and the bill can be split. The OP is over-thinking this, and so are a lot of responders. THAT is the problem. People are jumping way ahead of the game - it's not like he's asking or expecting her to have his child. She may not even be interested. As it stands - probably wise for him to just move on, because there's no way he could ask her casually what with all the various advice he is getting here.

You're an older guy right? So what worked long ago in theory should work today but times have changed too so it's not always the same. Dude below makes the same points I make which I have bolded. You think it's nothing much but now she thinks the environment has changed. You might not be hanging around her or staring but now she is staring at you trying to catch you staring at her or she avoids going near you out of a sense of being uncomfortable knowing your thoughts. Some people get paranoid.

Never, ever, try, ask, hint, whatever, to arrange a "date", even a casual one that has ANY romantic element, at work with a co-worker. You, my friend, are walking into a mine field.

Think about how uncomfortable you both will be if she rejects you and you still have to work at the same place.

If you make any imposition on her that causes her to feel in any way uncomfortable, no matter how innocent, next thing you know she is complaining to HR and you will be called in for a "meeting".

Many companies have written (and unwritten) employee fraternization rules.

Unless you do not care about your career or reputation, it is simply not worth the risk of having it destroyed.

Also, if she is one of the hotter ladies at the workplace, chances are she has been hit on many times already by different guys, and may be getting tired of it.

If, on the other hand, your contract expires, you move on, and you casually keep in touch with her, wait six months after you have left your current contract and have zero ties to the company, then it's appropriate to contact her on a friendly level, ask how she is doing, and perhaps if she responds positively, ask to see her for a coffee.

Do nothing while you are still engaged in any way with the company you both currently work for.

 

[Jasmine Raine]

I thank everybody for chiming in on this; lots of different and valid viewpoints and great suggestions. I have given it more thought and have a strategy to best proceed forward in an organic way (while also happy to move on if the desired outcome is not in my favour.) It's all good either way. Thanks everybody!

Please be sure to update us. Good luck!

 

[essguy_]

I know Don has said thanks for the responses so this no longer applies to him but anyone else in general who might encounter the situation.



You're an older guy right? So what worked long ago in theory should work today but times have changed too so it's not always the same. Dude below makes the same points I make which I have bolded. You think it's nothing much but now she thinks the environment has changed. You might not be hanging around her or staring but now she is staring at you trying to catch you staring at her or she avoids going near you out of a sense of being uncomfortable knowing your thoughts. Some people get paranoid.

Yeah, I'm an "older guy" sempel - working in an industry (investment industry) that's probably had to undergo the most massive change during my career as far as adjusting attitudes towards women. Like anybody else who manages people - I've had to stay current on policy. So you, even throwing in the odd "dude" to make yourself seem cooler than you can realistically maintain for longer than a sentence, shouldn't assume that I'm referring to the past. Unless there is a specific policy preventing it, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with asking a co-worker out for a casual coffee or lunch, provided you are not in a position of power, where her answer would be under duress. It's only if the guy persists after that initial rejection that a problem arises. Again, as I've stated above - with all the various advice this guy has received, and given that he even sought it (meaning he's already thought too much) - I would advise him to move on - because he might be the type to get red-flagged.

 

[james t kirk]

N

Many companies have written (and unwritten) employee fraternization rules.

I'm aware that companies have policies about 2 people at the same company in which one reports directly to the other.

However, I've never seen what you're suggesting. I don't think it legal that you can tell someone who they can date or not.

 

[drc75]

I'm aware that companies have policies about 2 people at the same company in which one reports directly to the other.

However, I've never seen what you're suggesting. I don't think it legal that you can tell someone who they can date or not.

Not telling someone who they can date or not, just if they do date they won't be employed there any longer.

 

[sempel]

Yeah, I'm an "older guy" sempel - working in an industry (investment industry) that's probably had to undergo the most massive change during my career as far as adjusting attitudes towards women. Like anybody else who manages people - I've had to stay current on policy. So you, even throwing in the odd "dude" to make yourself seem cooler than you can realistically maintain for longer than a sentence, shouldn't assume that I'm referring to the past. Unless there is a specific policy preventing it, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with asking a co-worker out for a casual coffee or lunch, provided you are not in a position of power, where her answer would be under duress. It's only if the guy persists after that initial rejection that a problem arises. Again, as I've stated above - with all the various advice this guy has received, and given that he even sought it (meaning he's already thought too much) - I would advise him to move on - because he might be the type to get red-flagged.

I was actually complimenting the old school but as usual you're too thick and take it the wrong way.

 

[managee]

No, she doesn't. People shouldn't be cowed by what's going on with "MeToo".

This assumes that she does not report in any way to you and you don't have any power over her promotions or evaluations. THAT would be inappropriate. This also assumes the OP isn't creeping around her desk all the time, or peeping at her all day. Any HR department worth its salt can separate the wheat from the chaff. Unless there is a specific company policy about "dating" co-workers (and try to define "dating") then you would not get into any trouble by politely and respectfully asking a co-worker out for a daytime coffee or even a casual lunch. It's when the co-worker says "No" but you don't get the message and continue to ask that it becomes harassment. But once, done casually, politely and without pressure? Not a problem. Co-workers go out for coffee or lunch all the time. Doesn't even have to be a date and the bill can be split. The OP is over-thinking this, and so are a lot of responders. THAT is the problem. People are jumping way ahead of the game - it's not like he's asking or expecting her to have his child. She may not even be interested. As it stands - probably wise for him to just move on, because there's no way he could ask her casually what with all the various advice he is getting here.

Much to my own surprise, I’m with sempel on this one.

It’s not just about the potential professional (or legal) fallout for me/you (the aggressor, no matter how passive), it’s about recognizing that our actions MAY be perceived as unwelcome in a workplace, however harmless or benign in their intent. Power dynamics may or may not enter into it.

I’m certainly not saying the world is a better place post #metoo, but failing to recognize that we’re living in a different world than we lived in 3-months ago is a mistake IMO if you’re in any of the workplaces I’m most familiar with these days. The office hasn’t really changed all that much, it’s just harder to pretend that we didn’t know our actions could have the impact they are clearly having on some women.

Should I be able to ask a co-worker if she wants to go out on a date? Ideally, yes. Particularly if saying ‘no’ comes without perceived or actual negative consequences.

But does she want to be asked out? In the workplace? By me?

In our brave new world of speed dating, Tinder, Bumble, Match (etc.), it’s not hard to find more appropriate avenues than being a work-flirt if you’re looking for a date.

==

Regardless, I did not get the impression that sempel somehow complimented ‘the old school’ in his posts. But obviously I’m pretty thick too.

 

[IM469]

But does she want to be asked out? In the workplace? By me?

I'm sure most women will convey their thoughts with the appropriate sensitivity to your feelings ..

 

[wickman12]

A few good suggestions so far.
I think I'd avoid asking her on a date before the contract is finished. As others alluded to, too dangerous these days.
I'd just casually say to her that you'd like to keep in touch with her after your contract is done. Give her your number/e-mail or whatever your preference is for contact info, and ask her for her number.
You'll know by how she responds if you should pursue her or not. If you get her number, give her a buzz a couple of days after you're gone fro that office.

But just ask for her contact info, not a date until you contact her afterwards.

I'm X2 for this approach. If your interaction in the kitchen is a quick 'hi how's ur day going' and nothing much beyond that, I feel a denial is greater if u jump straight to the point. Get her contact but I would only ask for Facebook, even a phone number may be too intrusive for her. If u are able to initiate contact thru FB then let it progress to a point where u can eventually get her number and ask her out.

Having said that, I'm also curious how old she may be, cuz I find each generation likes to handle this type of situation differently. If she's in her 20s or early 30s I feel social media is the best and safest approach.

 

[essguy_]

Much to my own surprise, I’m with sempel on this one.

It’s not just about the potential professional (or legal) fallout for me/you (the aggressor, no matter how passive), it’s about recognizing that our actions MAY be perceived as unwelcome in a workplace, however harmless or benign in their intent. Power dynamics may or may not enter into it.

I’m certainly not saying the world is a better place post #metoo, but failing to recognize that we’re living in a different world than we lived in 3-months ago is a mistake IMO if you’re in any of the workplaces I’m most familiar with these days. The office hasn’t really changed all that much, it’s just harder to pretend that we didn’t know our actions could have the impact they are clearly having on some women.

Should I be able to ask a co-worker if she wants to go out on a date? Ideally, yes. Particularly if saying ‘no’ comes without perceived or actual negative consequences.

But does she want to be asked out? In the workplace? By me?

In our brave new world of speed dating, Tinder, Bumble, Match (etc.), it’s not hard to find more appropriate avenues than being a work-flirt if you’re looking for a date.

==

Regardless, I did not get the impression that sempel somehow complimented ‘the old school’ in his posts. But obviously I’m pretty thick too.

Once again, people are over-thinking this and over-reacting to "MeToo". The real problem is when there is a power imbalance or when the predation (for lack of a better word) is random or comes out of the blue or gets repeated despite a request for it to stop or a simple "no". Nothing of the sort has happened here. The OP and this woman have already had friendly conversations. It's not like he's her boss and has power over her. It's not like he's the creepy mailroom guy who waits until a women's alone to approach for the first time (I mean, I'm assuming this isn't the case here). At this point, they are nothing more than office friends - and asking if she wants to have a coffee or grab lunch does NOT cross any boundaries. If she says no, move on. If she reports the OP to HR, then she's a psycho and the OP should simply state the truth if they choose to investigate because he has done nothing wrong up to this point. Humans interact. A functioning workplace is full of human interactions. The "metoo" is about harassment not normal, human interactions. But the OP should not over-think this. He should not script a pickup line or script anything else. He should simply act like a normal, healthy adult and ask if she wants to have a coffee/lunch. Then go from there. If he feels nervous about this THEN he shouldn't do anything, move on - and learn for the next time.

 

[oil&gas]

If a co-worker ask you out for a date how would
you decide whether to say yes or no? I have to be an
eunuch to turn down even a mildly attractive lady's
advance. I would say yes to at least 7 out of 10
chicks around me. But this can only happen in a film
and doesn't help with understanding how it feels
if I were in the same boat as a lady facing a potential
harassment. A more likely scenario is me getting hit
on by a male co-worker. Now hypothetically lets say
at workplace I've been rumoured to be gay, under what
circumstances would I NOT find the guy creepy and say yes?
Aside from being gay indeed there had to be a connection
already developed with the guy for me to feel comfortable
to give either a yes or no response. I guess I would file
a harassment charge if the interaction between the guy
and I had been nothing beyond a casual exchange like
saying hi or remarks like how fine the weather is.

Using such imagined scenario as a guide I think my
primary concern in asking a lady in my office out should
not even be how to increase the odds of getting a date.
I would first see to it that there wouldn't be any feeling
of awkwardness on her part after she turned me down.

Some years ago a female co-worker in my office
had to deal with advances from two guys from an office
located on an upper level. There were later rumours
spread around that the fight between the two over her
nearly escalated from verbal to physical. Nonetheless
she, having tuned both down, remained in good terms
with them and nothing
unpleasant transpired although their boss had to
suggest one of the them to go on vacation to cool down.
The key to keeping such office romance
from turning into embarrassment for those involved
is simply that my co-worker and the two guys had
already had a rapport before they made their move.
Actually they were never close and
I don't think she ever had their phone numbers. But
there was already a more than casual familiarity
between them such that they could approach each
other to chat without having to find some excuse.
The guys might have come across as creepy
had they simply asked her out before that rapport
was established.

 

[managee]

Once again, people are over-thinking this and over-reacting to "MeToo". The real problem is when there is a power imbalance or when the predation (for lack of a better word) is random or comes out of the blue or gets repeated despite a request for it to stop or a simple "no". Nothing of the sort has happened here. The OP and this woman have already had friendly conversations. It's not like he's her boss and has power over her. It's not like he's the creepy mailroom guy who waits until a women's alone to approach for the first time (I mean, I'm assuming this isn't the case here). At this point, they are nothing more than office friends - and asking if she wants to have a coffee or grab lunch does NOT cross any boundaries. If she says no, move on. If she reports the OP to HR, then she's a psycho and the OP should simply state the truth if they choose to investigate because he has done nothing wrong up to this point. Humans interact. A functioning workplace is full of human interactions. The "metoo" is about harassment not normal, human interactions. But the OP should not over-think this. He should not script a pickup line or script anything else. He should simply act like a normal, healthy adult and ask if she wants to have a coffee/lunch. Then go from there. If he feels nervous about this THEN he shouldn't do anything, move on - and learn for the next time.

We must be working in different corporate environments. Last week, a colleague at a large, well-known Toronto office disciplined a subordinate/creep over “inappropriate staring.’ We shit-canned a maintenance worker in November (with cause) after two women in our office over 6-months complained about him occasionally hitting on them. From what I heard, it amounted to mostly harmless, but totally workplace-inappropriate flirtation.

We both know workplace sexual harassment is no joke, what’s changed recently is the bar has been lowered for what constitutes inappropriate actions in the workplace, and with it the threshold for a need to take action as an employer.

Asking a a female coworker out for lunch is totally harmless, if there isn’t mixed motive for those meals.

Overreaction or not, pushing back against an employee with a valid claim of unprofessionalism or inappropriateness has consequences some organizations aren’t willing to accept.

 

[sempel]

Much to my own surprise, I’m with sempel on this one.

It’s not just about the potential professional (or legal) fallout for me/you (the aggressor, no matter how passive), it’s about recognizing that our actions MAY be perceived as unwelcome in a workplace, however harmless or benign in their intent. Power dynamics may or may not enter into it.

I’m certainly not saying the world is a better place post #metoo, but failing to recognize that we’re living in a different world than we lived in 3-months ago is a mistake IMO if you’re in any of the workplaces I’m most familiar with these days. The office hasn’t really changed all that much, it’s just harder to pretend that we didn’t know our actions could have the impact they are clearly having on some women.

Should I be able to ask a co-worker if she wants to go out on a date? Ideally, yes. Particularly if saying ‘no’ comes without perceived or actual negative consequences.

But does she want to be asked out? In the workplace? By me?

In our brave new world of speed dating, Tinder, Bumble, Match (etc.), it’s not hard to find more appropriate avenues than being a work-flirt if you’re looking for a date.

==

Regardless, I did not get the impression that sempel somehow complimented ‘the old school’ in his posts. But obviously I’m pretty thick too.

Thanks. I was just saying the old stuff works in theory - ask a girl out and if she's good she says yes, if she isn't she says no. It wasn't an ageist comment as implied.

Once again, people are over-thinking this and over-reacting to "MeToo". The real problem is when there is a power imbalance or when the predation (for lack of a better word) is random or comes out of the blue or gets repeated despite a request for it to stop or a simple "no". Nothing of the sort has happened here. The OP and this woman have already had friendly conversations. It's not like he's her boss and has power over her. It's not like he's the creepy mailroom guy who waits until a women's alone to approach for the first time (I mean, I'm assuming this isn't the case here). At this point, they are nothing more than office friends - and asking if she wants to have a coffee or grab lunch does NOT cross any boundaries. If she says no, move on. If she reports the OP to HR, then she's a psycho and the OP should simply state the truth if they choose to investigate because he has done nothing wrong up to this point. Humans interact. A functioning workplace is full of human interactions. The "metoo" is about harassment not normal, human interactions. But the OP should not over-think this. He should not script a pickup line or script anything else. He should simply act like a normal, healthy adult and ask if she wants to have a coffee/lunch. Then go from there. If he feels nervous about this THEN he shouldn't do anything, move on - and learn for the next time.

I think we can all see a difference between asking a coworker for coffee/lunch during the workday which obviously does not constitute a date. I ask coworkers (male and female) if they want to go somewhere to eat - we aren't dating (at least I wasn't). There's a clear difference versus asking them on a date which is clearly what we are talking about here so please don't pretend you are naïve. And why does it have to be a boss or a creepy mailroom guy? You work with people in other departments, you run into interns, assistants, contractors, etc. Hell you meet people at townhalls. But if you ask any girl out in the workplace and she reacts badly, you're still going through some trouble. I don't know about others but MeToo has nothing to do with my thinking - I would have said this well before because that's just a known fact. Same thing with complimenting a girl on her look, outfit, etc. Potential for a very bad reaction and this was known well before MeToo.

 

[essguy_]

Thanks. I was just saying the old stuff works in theory - ask a girl out and if she's good she says yes, if she isn't she says no. It wasn't an ageist comment as implied.



I think we can all see a difference between asking a coworker for coffee/lunch during the workday which obviously does not constitute a date. I ask coworkers (male and female) if they want to go somewhere to eat - we aren't dating (at least I wasn't). There's a clear difference versus asking them on a date which is clearly what we are talking about here so please don't pretend you are naïve.

Huh? I don’t know about you, but this (asking if she wants to go for a simple coffee or to eat lunch together) is EXACTLY what I’m talking about. In fact I’ve said it several times - everybody is overthinking this. This guy came on here for advice and my advice, since he felt the need to get it, is to NOT over think it (which he and most others already have done). It’s a very normal thing, NOT a date, and for a guy who needs to come on a forum to ask - this is the best advice, IMO. Anything else (pickup lines, leaving notes, etc) is going way past what I suspect his real comfort zone, and WILL end up being creepy and inappropriate. He’s obviously not ready to ask for a real date, so a simple coffee or workday lunch is a much better and realistic thing. Again, that’s why I advised that he might want to simply move on and learn for next time. The mere fact that he’s here asking for advice is a good indication that he’s already missed what should have been a NORMAL, simple interaction that is totally within the boundaries of workplace behaviour.

 

[essguy_]

We must be working in different corporate environments. Last week, a colleague at a large, well-known Toronto office disciplined a subordinate/creep over “inappropriate staring.’ We shit-canned a maintenance worker in November (with cause) after two women in our office over 6-months complained about him occasionally hitting on them.

Well, I don’t know about the environment (mine is high stress and full of type A personalities) but the described situations are completely different. Constant staring, or constant hitting on other women IS inappropriate. In fact, I believe I’ve stated this above. So, assuming (again) that the OP isn’t the “office creep” or the constantly and persistent office douchebag, we are talking about totally different scenarios. My take of the OP is that he’s shy, but normal (yes, assumptions). If you assume otherwise, then the advice HAS to be to move on.

 

[Samranchoi]

Relationships that have begun in the workplace have been happening for a very long time. This is not old news. The only thing I can say based upon personal experience, be respectful, responsible and do not overstep boundaries.

 

[frankcastle]

There seems to be people saying don't ask someone out on a date from work.

He is a temp. He is not in a position of power.

Asking someone out for dinner or lunch is pretty innocent. As long as you aren't lovingly stroking your coffee mug and licking the spoon.

I agree that you wait till near the end or phone afterwards.

Don't over think it. Don't use a pick up line.

Besides asking for a coffee. lunch or dinner is not a big deal.

 

[james t kirk]

Not telling someone who they can date or not, just if they do date they won't be employed there any longer.

I don't think legally you can do that.

I was told that companies think they can, but it's unconstitutional.

We'll let some of the lawyers chime in on this perhaps.

 

[rigel]

In your case I would definitely wait for the assignment to end. Speak to her before you leave and tell her that you would like to get to know her outside of the office. Offer your contact info and leave it up to her to see if she's interested.

Rigel

 

[sempel]

I don't think legally you can do that.

I was told that companies think they can, but it's unconstitutional.

We'll let some of the lawyers chime in on this perhaps.

I shall use my current source of legal info - Grey's Anatomy. The hierarchy is interns, residents, and attendings, from low to high. Obviously tons of relationships between the groups. They instituted a no relationship policy at one point, a declaration of workplace relationships at one point, and another declaration where you basically sign that the relationship is consensual and not harassment, essentially a waiver, to get around the no relationship policy. Now, obviously this is tv but many shows will use real life scenarios for authenticity so there's a possibility these things are legal, at least in the US.

Put it this way though. If you do something that the company doesn't like/want I'm sure they will come up with a way to get you out of there. So if they have a policy about relationships and you violate it, expect the axe to come at some point.