Palmach's contributions to the attack were that they destroyed sniper positions in the village. They went on to call Irgun and Lehi "thieves and murderers" for their killing of unarmed civilians at Deir Yassin. They also supplied Irgun and Lehi with ammunition. They are not the ones who killed the civilians, and in fact put a stop to that once they arrived.
It's only terrorism if you have brown skin or a towel on your head
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Actually no you aren't. You began by discussing Irgun, Lehi, and Haganah. I think we have had a forthright discussion of that. I had asked you about Hamas repeatedly throughout this discussion and you have repeatedly avoided answering. That's where we are.Evasive? I've been waiting for your response to the issue of the terrorist, Yitzak Rabin.
You brought up Yitzak Rabin only AFTER I had asked you repeatedly about Hamas.
I am happy to go on and discuss Yitzak Rabin with you, but you have to be fair here, answer my question first:
Is Hamas a terrorist organization?
Let's be fair: You answer that question and I will answer any question you want, about Yitzak Rabin if you like, or anything else.
Show me that you aren't evasive.
That's quite a tap dance. Yitzak Rabin was a member of Haganah. We are very much on topic with him.Actually no you aren't. You began by discussing Irgun, Lehi, and Haganah. I think we have had a forthright discussion of that. I had asked you about Hamas. That's where we are.
You brought up Yitzak Rabin only AFTER I had asked you repeatedly about Haganah.
I am happy to go on and discuss Yitzak Rabin with you, but you have to be fair here, answer my question first:
Is Hamas a terrorist organization?
The Expulsion Libel: 1948 Arab "Exodus" ReconsideredEvasive? I've been waiting for your response to the issue of the terrorist, Yitzak Rabin. As you know, Israel does not have a free press and has been under military censorship for more than 40 years. As a result, he was not able to tell the truth (it really would upset the fairy tale of Israel if it got out) about his actions. Poor Yitzak.....trying to unburden himself and his country won't let him:
JERUSALEM, Oct. 22--A censorship board composed of five Cabinet members prohibited former Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin from including in his memoirs a first-person account of the expulsion of 50,000 Palestinian civilians from their homes near Tel Aviv during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70813FC3F5410728DDDAA0A94D8415B898BF1D3
This is what he wanted to confess to:
"What would they do with the 50,000 civilians in the two cities ... Not even Ben-Gurion could offer a solution, and during the discussion at operation headquarters, he remained silent, as was his habit in such situations. Clearly, we could not leave [Lydda's] hostile and armed populace in our rear, where it could endanger the supply route [to the troops who were] advancing eastward. ... Allon repeated the question: What is to be done with the population? Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture that said: Drive them out! ... 'Driving out' is a term with a harsh ring ... Psychologically, this was one of the most difficult actions we undertook. The population of Lod did not leave willingly. There was no way of avoiding the use of force and warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march the 10 to 15 miles to the point where they met up with the legion. The inhabitants of Ramleh watched and learned the lesson. Their leaders agreed to be evacuated voluntarily."
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/04/the_expulsion_libel_1948_arab.html
Jewish Expulsion from Arab lands.
Scope of expulsion
It is estimated that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews were either forced from their homes or left the Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s; 260,000 reached Israel between 1948–1951, and 600,000 by 1972.[1][2][3] The Jews of Egypt and Libya were expelled while those of Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon and North Africa left as a result of physical and political insecurity. Most were forced to abandon their property.[2] By 2002, these Jews and their descendants constituted about 40% of Israel's population.[3] One of the main representative bodies of this group, the World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries, (WOJAC) estimates that Jewish property abandoned in Arab countries would be valued today at more than $300 billion[4][5] and Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the state of Israel).[1][5] The organization asserts that the Jewish exodus was the result of a deliberate policy decision taken by the Arab League.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands
The point is that most thinking people agree that neither side is without fault or blame and that the time has come to make paace and to rcognize each other.
I say thinking people because the again there is you.
Haganah condemned the killing of civilians. Your turn:Stop the tap dance. Yitzak Rabin was a member of Haganah. We are very much on topic with him.
Is Hamas a terrorist organization?
Let me understand what you are saying...are you saying Palmach took out sniper positions days before the attack or during the attack?Palmach's contributions to the attack were that they destroyed sniper positions in the village. They went on to call Irgun and Lehi "thieves and murderers" for their killing of unarmed civilians at Deir Yassin. They also supplied Irgun and Lehi with ammunition. They are not the ones who killed the civilians, and in fact put a stop to that once they arrived.
They participated in the killing of civilians. Saying you condemn something while you do it is commonplace. I'm not interested in their denials. We have prima evidence. In fact, we have confession of Yitzhak Rabin himself.Haganah condemned the killing of civilians. Your turn:
Is Hamas a terrorist organization?
I'll spell it right out for you:Let me understand what you are saying...are you saying Palmach took out sniper positions days before the attack or during the attack?
1. Irgin and Lehi tried to attack the village, but they were incompetent and could not overcome the fighters in the village, specifically, snipers, so they called on the better trained Haganah for help
2. Haganah deployed a unit that took out some of the military targets in the village, specifically, they took out the snipers using a mortar
3. Irgun and Lehi then entered the village and began murdering unarmed civilians, moreover, even when attacking legitimate military targets, they did so with no regard to civilian lives, throwing grenades into houses just to see if anyone was there
4. Haganah officials eventually arrive in the village and put a stop to the murdering
5. Haganah goes on to inspect the village and collects and documents evidence that Irgun and Lehi killed innocent civilians
6. Hanagah goes on to condemn Lehi and Irgun as murderers and terrorists
In short Haganah participated in only military aspects of the attack on the village, snipers are fighters. They did not participate, did not support, and subsequently condemned the massacre of innocent, unarmed civilians.
Whether you agree with him or not or accept what he says Fuji at least give you the courtesy of replying to you and answering your questions. Why not do the same for him.They participated in the killing of civilians. Saying you condemn something while you do it is commonplace. I'm not interested in their denials. We have prima evidence. In fact, we have confession of Yitzhak Rabin himself.
By they do you mean Hamas? At what point do you switch to talking about Haganah?They participated in the killing of civilians. Saying you condemn something while you do it is commonplace. I'm not interested in their denials. We have prima evidence. In fact, we have confession of Yitzhak Rabin himself.
By the way the point is that Haganah DID NOT participate in the killing of civilians. They participated in the military aspects of the attack. They did not participate in the killing of the civilians that were carried out by Irgun and Lehi. In fact they put a stop to the killings.
I have already agreed that Haganah should have done more to stop Irgun and Lehi from killing civilians but that is different than saying that they were responsible for the massacre.
Palmach was part of the operation. Haganah gave approval. They supplied amunition. They helped render the population defenceless. They participated in the expulsion. They also tried to murder civilians.I'll spell it right out for you:
1. Irgin and Lehi tried to attack the village, but they were incompetent and could not overcome the fighters in the village, specifically, snipers, so they called on the better trained Haganah for help
2. Haganah deployed a unit that took out some of the military targets in the village, specifically, they took out the snipers using a mortar
3. Irgun and Lehi then entered the village and began murdering unarmed civilians, moreover, even when attacking legitimate military targets, they did so with no regard to civilian lives, throwing grenades into houses just to see if anyone was there
4. Haganah officials eventually arrive in the village and put a stop to the murdering
5. Haganah goes on to inspect the village and collects and documents evidence that Irgun and Lehi killed innocent civilians
6. Hanagah goes on to condemn Lehi and Irgun as murderers and terrorists
In short Haganah participated in only military aspects of the attack on the village, snipers are fighters. They did not participate, did not support, and subsequently condemned the massacre of innocent, unarmed civilians.
"A third group that took part, though to a lesser extent, was the Palmach, the armed wing of the Haganah, whose leadership was aligned with the political Left (see Mapai). Morris writes that two Palmach squads evacuated the wounded, and helped to invade and secure some of the villagers' houses. When the Irgun and Lehi fighters ran low on ammunition, they obtained thousands of rounds from the Haganah. Haganah squads also provided covering fire, and fired on villagers fleeing south towards Ayn Karim.[21]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre#Haganah_report
This is true, but it is only half the truth. Haganah gave approval for the attack, and did not give approval for the massacre. Haganah particpated in attacking military elements in the village, such as snipers, but did not participate in killing civilians. In fact Haganah insisted that the civilians be protected, and put a stop to the killing when it found out about it.Palmach was part of the operation. Haganah gave approval. They supplied amunition. They helped render the population defenceless. They participated in the expulsion.
No, they didn't, they put a stop to the killing when they found out about it. Irgun and Lehi plainly not only tried to murder civilians, but succeeded in killing a lot of innocent people. Haganah found that behavior repulsive.They also tried to murder civilians.
I agree with all that. Nothing there says they were part of the massacre. They fired on villagers approaching Ayn Karim the same way that IDF these days fires on Palestinians who stray too near the security fence in Gaza. That is not the same thing as being responsible for a massacre dude."A third group that took part, though to a lesser extent, was the Palmach, the armed wing of the Haganah, whose leadership was aligned with the political Left (see Mapai). Morris writes that two Palmach squads evacuated the wounded, and helped to invade and secure some of the villagers' houses. When the Irgun and Lehi fighters ran low on ammunition, they obtained thousands of rounds from the Haganah. Haganah squads also provided covering fire, and fired on villagers fleeing south towards Ayn Karim.[21]"
That's a quaint notion of responsibility. We approve the operation. We take part in the operation. We help render the population defenceless. We supply the ammunition. We fire on civilians fleeing a massacre. But, we have no responsibility.This is true, but it is only half the truth. Haganah gave approval for the attack, and did not give approval for the massacre. Haganah particpated in attacking military elements in the village, such as snipers, but did not participate in killing civilians. In fact Haganah insisted that the civilians be protected, and put a stop to the killing when it found out about it.
No, they didn't, they put a stop to the killing when they found out about it. Irgun and Lehi plainly not only tried to murder civilians, but succeeded in killing a lot of innocent people. Haganah found that behavior repulsive.
I agree with all that. Nothing there says they were part of the massacre. They fired on villagers approaching Ayn Karim the same way that IDF these days fires on Palestinians who stray too near the security fence in Gaza. That is not the same thing as being responsible for a massacre dude.
So you do agree then that Hamas are terrorists. Well at least we have got that straightened out now.That's a quaint notion of responsibility. We approve the operation. We take part in the operation. We help render the population defenceless. We supply the ammunition. We fire on civilians fleeing a massacre. But, we have no responsibility.
I agreed they should have done more to stop the terrorists. That does not make them terrorists themselves. That makes them people who did not do enough about terrorists.That's a quaint notion of responsibility. We approve the operation. We take part in the operation. We help render the population defenceless. We supply the ammunition. We fire on civilians fleeing a massacre. But, we have no responsibility.
Had Irgun and Lehi done what Haganah agreed to, approved of, and supported, there would have been no massacre.
The facts say otherwise. You also fail to mention that the village had signed a non-aggression agreement with the Haganah and the Haganah chose to violate that agreement. They also decided not to give the villagers any warning of the impending attack.I agreed they should have done more to stop the terrorists. That does not make them terrorists themselves. That makes them people who did not do enough about terrorists.
Had Irgun and Lehi done what Haganah agreed to, approved of, and supported, there would have been no massacre.
None that youv'e been able to cite. I think my view is pretty balanced: Haganah split from Irgun over its refusal to attack civilians and consistently stuck to that position. Haganah repeatedly criticized Irgun for its actions not only in Deir Yassin but elsewhere. Haganah participated in Deir Yassin only in ways that are consistent with its view that attacks on civilians are unacceptable.The facts say otherwise.
It is, however, fair to say that Haganah should have done more to prevent Irgun and Lehi from killing civilians.
This is true. It doesn't change anything we're discussing.You also fail to mention that the village had signed a non-aggression agreement with the Haganah and the Haganah chose to violate that agreement.
This is false. Haganah insisted that the villagers be given advance warning and arranged for a truck with a loudspeaker to warn them.They also decided not to give the villagers any warning of the impending attack.
Irgun and Lehi basically didn't care and/or were incompetent and failed to warn the villagers properly, but Haganah had insisted that the warnings be delivered prior to approving the operation.
Irgun and Lehi's failure to deliver the warnings properly is attributable to Irgun and Lehi, not Haganah.
The failure of the Haganah to respect an agreemnent made with villagers in regard to non-violence is of extreme relevance when that breaking of that agreement results in their massacre. It also means that the Haganah cannot be trusted.None that youv'e been able to cite. I think my view is pretty balanced: Haganah split from Irgun over its refusal to attack civilians and consistently stuck to that position. Haganah repeatedly criticized Irgun for its actions not only in Deir Yassin but elsewhere. Haganah participated in Deir Yassin only in ways that are consistent with its view that attacks on civilians are unacceptable.
It is, however, fair to say that Haganah should have done more to prevent Irgun and Lehi from killing civilians.
This is true. It doesn't change anything we're discussing.
This is false. Haganah insisted that the villagers be given advance warning and arranged for a truck with a loudspeaker to warn them.
Irgun and Lehi basically didn't care and/or were incompetent and failed to warn the villagers properly, but Haganah had insisted that the warnings be delivered prior to approving the operation.
Irgun and Lehi's failure to deliver the warnings properly is attributable to Irgun and Lehi, not Haganah.
Whether or not you are correct why are you worrying about trusting the Haganah. They have not existed since 1948.The failure of the Haganah to respect an agreemnent made with villagers in regard to non-violence is of extreme relevance when that breaking of that agreement results in their massacre. It also means that the Haganah cannot be trusted.
How about the fact that we cannot trust Hamas TODAY.
