Why no on going BP oil spill thread ??

[Yoga Face]

I invite you to look at how the same thing was done for several other fairly large companies. So long as you sell the cohesive business units off as blocks operations don't really stop. One relatively harmless way of killing the shareholders while saving the company would be to wipe them out entirely and auction the entire company off to the highest bidder. The company itself would remain unscathed while the shareholders would be annihilated.



At some level that's all irrelevant. They filed papers with the regulator claiming that they would be able to respond effectively to a leak, and they plainly had no fucking idea how to do that.

I agree with the point that they are politically well connected and that the right thing probably won't be done, but it is pretty clear how it could be done, and what could be done, if there were the political will to do the right thing.

In any case, whether it's this way or some other, the shareholders need to bleed badly. There is no other way that incidents such as this one will be prevented in the future. Regulation can only accomplish so much. At the end of the day there has to be a profit/fear-of-loss motive for the company to conduct operations in a safe way.

The share holders are you and I. Where do you think our insurance companies , mutual funds and retirement funds invest ? If our insurance companies lose on wall street they raise the rates

What is wrong with doing what they do on wall street ??? Someone is caught cheating all their profits are taken they are banned for life and go to jail

If executives avoid regulations and then lie about it or cover up like the tobacco firms then they get life

Also need whistle blower protection and even cash awards for those who do the right thing

 

[eurotrash1970]

There were several university professors that analyzed the rate at which the oil was coming out. They can calculate this based on the size of the hole, the visible rate at which it's coming out, etc.. they found the leak to be dumping double or more oil into the gulf than what BP estimated. I do think there is some glossing over going on here. But...

We are all guilty. We use oil for our cars. Just about everything we do is dependent on oil. Drilling for oil is dangerous and sooner or later there will be explosions and leaks. If we want to solve the problem, we need to push for serious changes to be made to global energy policy. Assigning blame to corporate executives is fine and good, until the next time there is a leak.

 

[Yoga Face]

There were several university professors that analyzed the rate at which the oil was coming out. They can calculate this based on the size of the hole, the visible rate at which it's coming out, etc.. they found the leak to be dumping double or more oil into the gulf than what BP estimated. I do think there is some glossing over going on here. But...

We are all guilty. We use oil for our cars. Just about everything we do is dependent on oil. Drilling for oil is dangerous and sooner or later there will be explosions and leaks. If we want to solve the problem, we need to push for serious changes to be made to global energy policy. Assigning blame to corporate executives is fine and good, until the next time there is a leak.

Green energy is not capable of providing us with enough energy


Not even close

 

[eurotrash1970]

Green energy is not capable of providing us with enough energy


Not even close

Where did you get this data BP? I suppose there's no global warming either.

 

[Yoga Face]

Where did you get this data BP? I suppose there's no global warming either.

And where do you get data to the contrary ???

I find it difficult to believe in conspiracy theories which is what the implication is

 

[eurotrash1970]

And where do you get data to the contrary ???

I find it difficult to believe in conspiracy theories which is what the implication is

A cracker jack box. The world is full of energy. One example is Hydrogen. A component of water, which we have a lot of. While Iceland is a small country, they are switching to hydrogen to power all their vehicles. Between that and the geothermal power in the country their dependence on oil will be very minimal. While we might never eliminate oil, we can always make our dependence on it as low as possible. People might argue that hydrogen is far from perfect as an energy source and that is true. But is oil perfect? I think not. It just destroyed the GULF OF MEXICO!

I don't think there's any conspiracy theories going on here. At worst they are underestimating the amount of oil being released. Might be intentional or not.

 

[eurotrash1970]

And where do you get data to the contrary ???

I find it difficult to believe in conspiracy theories which is what the implication is

Also, please define "green". I doubt there are too many truly "green" energy sources. Some are better for us and the planet than others. But all of them have drawbacks.

 

[Yoga Face]

We should have been working on this problem instead of flying to the moon

Scientist were well aware of the problem of warming and energy limits when JFK decided to do nothing about these issues


"We will solve the issues of human survival by the end of the decade not because it is easy but because it is hard"


The speech he never gave

 

[eurotrash1970]

We should have been working on this problem instead of flying to the moon

Scientist were well aware of the problem of warming and energy limits when JFK decided to do nothing about these issues


"We will solve the issues of human survival by the end of the decade not because it is easy but because it is hard"


The speech he never gave

If we go to the moon and beyond, we can find more worlds to pump more oil!

 

[JohnLarue]

Wow what a naive statement --- I guess you're not a shareholder, or a direct/indirect employee or a shareholder/employee of the many Corporations that rely on BP business. Must be nice to sit in that ivory tower of yours and spew off non rational ideas on what is a devastating disaster that will effect millions of people. First of all Fuji (aka TVI) we know very little on what caused this problem in the first place --- what we do know that this accident happened while the well was being decommissioned and capped, perhaps they knew it was a potential future problem and they were fixing it in a vain attempt at preventing this particular disaster (playing devil's advocate here) --- right know they are too busy limiting this disaster but the time will come to dissect what happened here and put in place preventive actions.

I swear you just post the first thing that comes into that noggin of yours without any thought of reality at all.

Your solution is no solution based in any kind of rational thinking in that what you propose would do more harm than the actual event. You also fail to get how politically connected this Company (third largest producer in the world) is and how much of it's money closely connects them to policy makers. Hell, even the rather rash idea of Congress to remove caps on liability is a hornets nest of problems in that if that amount is bumped up then it would freeze out small competitors leaving only the very largest firms able to drill in what gives the US nearly 30% of it's oil.

Really get a grip on your sanity.


kf1

You are wasting your time trying convince Fugi that his lame-brain ideas will not work
He comes up with numerous ill-conceived bad plans without applying any common sense nor any regard for consequences and collateral damage of his brain abortions.
Most of them are huge and on a grand scale. (to match his ego , I suspect)
One of them was to pay welfare mothers to produce more unwanted & unneeded bastards kids
The other was to tax the Canadian oil companies enough to start his pet project of a sovereign fund. The amount he proposed was in excess of the entire industries profit. He did know how much profit there was, just proposed a number.
In Fujis world, China should be free to grow its pollution while the West must scale back etc (no regard for the over-all level of pollution, just the pro-China allocation was important to him).

There are many more, each more ridiculous and ill-conceived than the prior one.
There is also a very pro-china basis to many of his arguments and I suspect he has hidden agenda behind some of his nightmares (I mean ideas)
Despite having the logical deficiencies of his Brain Farts pointed out to him, he will not concede one inch.
He will come up with numerous pie-in-the-sky reasons why his plan is the only plan , however is unable and unwilling to provide hard proof that it can work. (Just trust his wisdom).

Good luck to you, however convincing a fool that he is one is a low probability challenge
I have to be happy knowing he likely can not truly influence policy. If he can then he will make a god-awful mess of something, then walk away from it and onto the next idea

 

[Yoga Face]

A cracker jack box. The world is full of energy. One example is Hydrogen. A component of water, which we have a lot of. While Iceland is a small country, they are switching to hydrogen to power all their vehicles. Between that and the geothermal power in the country their dependence on oil will be very minimal. While we might never eliminate oil, we can always make our dependence on it as low as possible. People might argue that hydrogen is far from perfect as an energy source and that is true. But is oil perfect? I think not. It just destroyed the GULF OF MEXICO!

I don't think there's any conspiracy theories going on here. At worst they are underestimating the amount of oil being released. Might be intentional or not.

Until science can tap hydrogen as energy - right now it takes more energy to break water into hydrogen then you get from it - we are stuck with what we have and there are no oil company conspiracies stopping green conversion - just science

 

[Yoga Face]

You are wasting your time trying convince Fugi that his lame-brain ideas will not work
He comes up with numerous ill-conceived bad plans without applying any common sense nor any regard for consequences and collateral damage of his brain abortions.
Most of them are huge and on a grand scale. (to match his ego , I suspect)
One of them was to pay welfare mothers to produce more unwanted & unneeded bastards kids
The other was to tax the Canadian oil companies enough to start his pet project of a sovereign fund. The amount he proposed was in excess of the entire industries profit. He did know how much profit there was, just proposed a number.
In Fujis world, China should be free to grow its pollution while the West must scale back etc (no regard for the over-all level of pollution, just the pro-China allocation was important to him).

There are many more, each more ridiculous and ill-conceived than the prior one.
There is also a very pro-china basis to many of his arguments and I suspect he has hidden agenda behind some of his nightmares (I mean ideas)
Despite having the logical deficiencies of his Brain Farts pointed out to him, he will not concede one inch.
He will come up with numerous pie-in-the-sky reasons why his plan is the only plan , however is unable and unwilling to provide hard proof that it can work. (Just trust his wisdom).

Good luck to you, however convincing a fool that he is one is a low probability challenge
I have to be happy knowing he likely can not truly influence policy. If he can then he will make a god-awful mess of something, then walk away from it and onto the next idea

Fuji is a product of our public schools no doubt

 

[JohnLarue]

We should have been working on this problem instead of flying to the moon

Scientist were well aware of the problem of warming and energy limits when JFK decided to do nothing about these issues


"We will solve the issues of human survival by the end of the decade not because it is easy but because it is hard"



The speech he never gave

Do not be mistaken on the Moon project.
While getting man into space was a sellable and inspiring idea, the real reason the US poured billions into the project was to develop the technology for ICBMs that could wipe the Soviets off the face of the planet.

 

[fuji]

Really? Show us any reference to those "documents" they filed that said they could contain any "resulting leak"

They filed a 532 page document that claimed to cover any leak that was likely to occur. They failed to file a blowout plan because they also filed documents stating that a blowout was highly unlikely. In combination they claimed those documents covered any leak that was likely to occur. Then the blowout that they said was impossible occurred.

My guess is that they knew that was a pack of lies when they filed it, which is fraud. Fraud can pierce the corporate veil and poof goes their limited liability. If there were director level people involved in the fraud then you can go after their assets individually with no limitation on liability. If you can't prove fraud then sure liability is likely strictly limited, although I'd expect the government to be poring over the contracts and obligations looking for any way to extract a very large chunk of their assets.

It would take a lot of work to prove that obviously. My point about bankrupting the shareholders is that unless something like that is a potential outcome the shareholders risk profile will be unchanged. If it can't happen this time then the law needs to change so that it can happen next time.

 

[JEFF247]

I think BP just doesn't give a fuck. They had to shut down the Alaskan pipeline when gas was sky high because of lousy maintenance and corrosion. They also had to pay large fine for propane price fixing and now this spill that they surely are lying about also.

 

[Yoga Face]

Do not be mistaken on the Moon project.
While getting man into space was a sellable and inspiring idea, the real reason the US poured billions into the project was to develop the technology for ICBMs that could wipe the Soviets off the face of the planet.

They flew to the moon only because the Russians were going to and they wanted to beat them for some reason I do not understand


Why do you fly to the moon to build an ICBM ??? It would be a lot quicker to just build the ICBM without flying to the moon


I was at Cape Canaveral and they have the last Apollo on display because it never flew

It never flew because nobody gave a fuck, which demonstrates the lack of importance of flying to the moon.

They also had an Apollo astronaut field questions and I asked him "why fly to the moon?" and he gave a rehearsed pompous speech full of adjectives, thunder and lightning that signified nothing

 

[eurotrash1970]

Until science can tap hydrogen as energy - right now it takes more energy to break water into hydrogen then you get from it - we are stuck with what we have and there are no oil company conspiracies stopping green conversion - just science

The only reason this is true is because money needs to be invested into the building of large scale facilities than can perform separation on a large scale. The technology is there, it just needs some refinement. However, that will not happen as long as we are an oil based society. We would have to change the way we think and live. Our entire infrastructure would need to change. I can only imagine how much money is invested in oil rigs, tankers, oil fields, pipelines, gas stations, etc.. To change something on this scale will be one of the biggest projects our society will face (probably in our lifetimes). But this has to happen because eventually we will run out of oil or it will become so expensive that it would be easier and cheaper to change to a different energy source. I think it all boils down to money. But we should be looking to the future. Start this process now and slowly roll it out. Then we can save the oil for other things like making plastic. Hydrogen probably offers the most potential for being a replacement. It's clean burning and our oceans are filled with it. The extraction process needs a little work. But a lot has been done on that front over the past few years. With oil as expensive as it is, it's starting to look like a feasible alternative.

 

[eurotrash1970]

They flew to the moon only because the Russians were going to and they wanted to beat them for some reason I do not understand


Why do you fly to the moon to build an ICBM ??? It would be a lot quicker to just build the ICBM without flying to the moon


I was at Cape Canaveral and they have the last Apollo on display because it never flew

It never flew because nobody gave a fuck, which demonstrates the lack of importance of flying to the moon.

They also had an Apollo astronaut field questions and I asked him "why fly to the moon?" and he gave a rehearsed pompous speech full of adjectives, thunder and lightning that signified nothing

Why did they go to the moon? To prove that they could and to show the world that we were better than the Russians. It was a space race and we needed to show the world how arrogant we really are in the United States. The only reason I can think of to go to the moon is as a launch point to other worlds. Maybe to mine it at some point for minerals and\or fuel. But that would be expensive and it would need to make fiscal sense. I could see going there once to see what's there, get samples and ascertain how it could be used to help us find, travel to and populate other worlds. The billions spent on the remaining missions could have been better spent finding more feasible ways to get to these worlds. Space travel as we know it is not going to allow us to travel anywhere that we would want or need to go.

 

[Yoga Face]

The only reason this is true is because money needs to be invested into the building of large scale facilities than can perform separation on a large scale. The technology is there, it just needs some refinement.

Are not you making stuff up ?


This tastes of a conspiracy


Oil companies intentionally not seeking alternative routes to profit ????????????

They could make huge $$$$$$$$$$$$$ if they did

They would own the world and no more middle east problems as we would leave them with their camels and desert and Mecca

Same with auto industry as they would love to build a car that runs on water

 

[eurotrash1970]

Are not you making stuff up ?


This tastes of a conspiracy


Oil companies intentionally not seeking alternative routes to profit ????????????

They could make huge $$$$$$$$$$$$$ if they did

They would own the world and no more middle east problems as we would leave them with their camels and desert and Mecca

Same with auto industry as they would love to build a car that runs on water

I'm not talking about a car that runs on water. I'm talking about a similar setup to what we have with oil. Large nuclear facility on the coast separates the hydrogen from the water. Hydrogen is then piped or shipped to the filling station. You pull up in your hydrogen car and wholla, you fill the "gas" tank. To equip cars with the ability to separate out the hydrogen is not yet feasible or practical. What I'm saying is that the oil companies would have to invest billions. The government would have to invest billions on infrastructure changes, etc.. The car companies would also have to do the same. This would turn our world upside down and would have to be done slowly. In the end, I think it would be very profitable and benefit everyone. So why are we not trying? Why do we waste our time and money on stupid fluff like making more gas from corn? All it does it drive up the price of corn and take it away from the billions of mouths that go to bed hungry every day. Yet we fill our gas tanks with the food a baby in Africa should be getting. How sick is that?