China makes its play for Canada

[SchlongConery]

. People who have not lived there can not possibly know the brutality of that regime.

This is what I've been trying to convey in the Russian invasion of Ukraine discussions.

Too many people have to learn everything themselves. The hard way.

Pilots have a saying that you better learn from the mistakes of others because you won't live long enough to make them all on your own.

 

[SchlongConery]

We should worry about the present threat from the United States, than worry about a hypothetical threat from China if we were to strengthen business relations.

Nothing hypothetical about the CCP threat to Canada and to the rest of the world for that matter. And it is a long term threat.

If we drill down past the current Complainer-in-Chief, I'd say that 95% of American citizens have good feelings towards Canada and Canadians and consider us their friends and allies. Trump will be gone in a relatively short time one way or another. The Senate and House repugs will turn on him if he fucks up their economy much more... and he WILL die in the next few years of natural causes. That's because Americans consider McDonalds natural, native food.

And we will be friends with the USA again... wiser and better prepared for the future because of our experience with the western hemisphere's Kim Jung Un

 

[SchlongConery]

They also want our recycling garbage. Probably their old people sift through it looking for liquor bottles and cans, the same as here.

Not anymore. China banned the importation of 'recyclable materials' when they found out that their money grubbing privateers were simply getting paid to take the garbage from the West and dump it in China. In flagrant contravention of their contracts.

Now it gets dumped in other asian countries. (I don't recall exactly which ones but same shit, different country now.). And yet the west still supports the fantasy of recycling when they know that most of it just gets dumped in a landfill or burned in a third world smouldering mega-dump.

 

[SchlongConery]

They chose to create a military that was bigger than what they need for their national defence.
They chose to create over 750 military bases the world over.
It was their choice to do so because they wanted the military, political and economic clout.

THIS ^!

Same with American companies not only outsourcing some manufacturing to China to save them from paying American workers western wages. Never mind companies like Apple whose entire business is based on a foundation of almost all of their manufacturing being done in China.

And then Americans whine about high prices and will only shop at Walmart, Costco and Home Depot. And given the chance, will hire an illegal immigrant hanging out in the Home Depot parking lot for cash to build them a deck. Each and every American putting their own neighbours out of business and out of work for purely selfish reasons.

And Trump, ffs, is deeper with the Russians in ALL his businesses than the US is with CHY-nah!

 

[SchlongConery]

Junky deaths aren't newsworthy, on an individual basis. A coyote snatching a little dog is more interesting to the affluent viewers who rarely leave their homes after sunset.

I've seen 3 street people who were 'camping' in my neighbourhood, dead of fentanyl OD's. Lots of cops, ambulances and fire trucks but never a word in the news about any of them.

 

[WyattEarp]

THIS ^!

Same with American companies not only outsourcing some manufacturing to China to save them from paying American workers western wages. Never mind companies like Apple whose entire business is based on a foundation of almost all of their manufacturing being done in China.

And then Americans whine about high prices and will only shop at Walmart, Costco and Home Depot. And given the chance, will hire an illegal immigrant hanging out in the Home Depot parking lot for cash to build them a deck. Each and every American putting their own neighbours out of business and out of work for purely selfish reasons.

What you are inadvertently advocating for is a U.S. that closes itself to most foreign trade.

I think every Administration since Reagan has supported free trade to an extreme in the hopes that it would bring nations together and make the world more peaceful. There are some rules to the world trading system, but many countries try to game it.

The important thing to understand is that the U.S. took responsibility to support the global trading system after World War 2. Periodically, it has been forced to tweak the system and the rules. It's actually not at all unusual in the post-war era. You can argue with Trump's methods. However, a re-engineering of the world trading system is long overdue and inevitable over the next few years.

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

If you don't want to wake up in a bathtub full of ice with a big gaping hole where they removed your kidney when you agreed to let them fuck you in the ass for a 'good price', then you better understand Chinese business culture towards us roundeyes. Nice people, interesting and with a very interesting but complex culture.. but you better be knowledgable in their business culture. And make provisions for being shorted, substituted and outright ripped off.

There are companies that are smarter and way more powerful than you and I that have learned their lesson from trying to do business in China.

I agree.
But my point is you don't have to have lived there to understand their business culture.
We have many eminent business people who have done business with China and continue to do so even as we speak.
I am sure those people have the qualifications and knowledge to handle these risks effectively.

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

And we will be friends with the USA again... wiser and better prepared for the future because of our experience with the western hemisphere's Kim Jung Un

I certainly hope so.
The longer he stays in power the more he fucks up trust and ruins business relations.

 

[SchlongConery]

What you are inadvertently advocating for is a U.S. that closes itself to most foreign trade.

I think every Administration since Reagan has supported free trade to an extreme in the hopes that it would bring nations together and make the world more peaceful. There are some rules to the world trading system, but many countries try to game it.

The important thing to understand is that the U.S. took responsibility to support the global trading system after World War 2. Periodically, it has been forced to tweak the system and the rules. It's actually not at all unusual in the post-war era. You can argue with Trump's methods. However, a re-engineering of the world trading system is long overdue and inevitable over the next few years.

I'm not "advocating" for anything except to take Trump's whining with a bag of salt. US corporations in their insatiable drive for favourable quarterly results reporting pursued their own deals on their own products and services with the full support of the US gov't they lobbied to offshore their production. The US set their own rules. Now Trump is whining that, among other things,, that Canada is "ripping off" the US etc. Fucking bullshit.

I am all for free trade, complex though it is.

 

[SchlongConery]

I certainly hope so.
The longer he stays in power the more he fucks up trust and ruins business relations.

Oh, he has already fucked up business relations. Neither side is going to make investments after Trump created uncertainty out of thin air. And wiped out TRILLIONS of dollars of value from US companies and citizen's retirement funds etc. There is NO possibility ANY deal he can make with anyone can undo the tangible trillions of damage his recklessness has caused. Never mind the loss of trust and further reputational damage the US may never recover from.

I have lots of American friends, family and associates. I only knew 4 that support Trump.

 

[WyattEarp]

I'm not "advocating" for anything except to take Trump's whining with a bag of salt. US corporations in their insatiable drive for favourable quarterly results reporting pursued their own deals on their own products and services with the full support of the US gov't they lobbied to offshore their production. The US set their own rules. Now Trump is whining that, among other things,, that Canada is "ripping off" the US etc. Fucking bullshit.

I am all for free trade, complex though it is.

I'm confused. You want free trade, but you don't want corporations to engage in it.

So would that mean that free trade is cool if you're trading coconuts for soybeans, but other things not so much?

 

[SchlongConery]

I'm confused. You want free trade, but you don't want corporations to engage in it.

So would that mean that free trade is cool if you're trading coconuts for soybeans, but other things not so much?

No.

Let me explain it another way.

I'm for free trade.

I'm fine with business' offshoring production.

I'm fine with consumers buying the cheapest product at Walmart.

Just don't whine about the unintended consequences of your own decisions and try to blame them on others.

 

[WyattEarp]

But my point is you don't have to have lived there to understand their business culture.
We have many eminent business people who have done business with China and continue to do so even as we speak.
I am sure those people have the qualifications and knowledge to handle these risks effectively.

I think you have been oversimplifying things quite a bit to support some point about China.

Plenty of companies avoid investing in China because of capital controls. For laymen here, you can make an investment but you won't be able to get your money out for a long, long time. Companies with intellectual property avoid China because Chinese businesses will simply copy the technology. Beijing will not enforce international IP laws. For a condition of doing business, the Chinese govt. has even boldly required that firms place IP within China.

Chinese firms want to raise money on Western stock exchanges and debt markets, but they often don't meet Western audit standards. The Chinese govt. has shielded companies in violation of Western audit standards. These aren't Western governments. These are audit firms with industry standards. The major accounting firms frequently pullback from audit relationships with Chinese firms. The Chinese firms working with others in govt. and industry set-up elaborate frauds and deceit. The Chinese govt. won't prosecute unless you fall out of political favor with the regime.

Doing business in China is not anything close to doing business among Western nations. China is included in the World Trade Organization simply because the WTO's enforcement has no teeth. The WTO has been hoping for a more responsible China for a long-time.

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

Plenty of companies avoid investing in China because of capital controls.

And plenty do.
Massively, if I may say so.
It also depends on what we do business in (industry, product etc).
Instead of you or me deciding that China is an absolute go/no go, based on oversimplified armchair analysis, let us leave it to the ones who know how to handle these risks.
I acknowledge risks exist.
But they can be managed.

 

[WyattEarp]

No.

Let me explain it another way.

I'm for free trade.

I'm fine with business' offshoring production.

I'm fine with consumers buying the cheapest product at Walmart.

Just don't whine about the unintended consequences of your own decisions and try to blame them on others.

Read this because, you wouldn't be the first to approach the global trade equation from this perspective. I believe most journalists probably think this way. In all fairness, there is a vast majority of independent economists who teach and publish on the topic of Triffin's dilemma. You have to be careful not getting sucked into the U.S. political vortex. A Democratic-supporting economist might bend his thoughts to criticize Trump, but never give you full disclosure on the topic of global trade.

For the laymen here, the global trading system works best when countries consume (spend) more as they gain wealth. Increased domestic consumption will increase global consumption. If countries like China as well as Germany suppress domestic consumption through various internal mechanisms, global supply will exceed global consumption on a chronic basis. The country with the reserve currency (The U.S.) is forced to consume more in order to avoid global economic underperformance and stagnation.

Triffin dilemma - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[squeezer]

China only killed 60 million of its own people under Mao, slaughtered countless more at Tiananmen Square and runs concentration camps for Uyghurs while constantly threatening to invade Taiwan. But yeah, the U.S. is more of a threat!

China isn't after Greenland, The Panama Canal and Canada.

 

[WyattEarp]

And plenty do.
Massively, if I may say so.
It also depends on what we do business in (industry, product etc). Instead of you or me deciding that China is an absolute go/no go, based on oversimplified armchair analysis, let us leave it to the ones who know how to handle these risks.
I acknowledge risks exist.
But they can be managed.

I think most of us with significant business experience realize that you are a neophyte to this subject.
You present a certain idealism that is unhinged from the reality.

More to the point, your China argument is not the answer to challenging Trump's world view on trade.

Instead of you or me deciding that China is an absolute go/no go, based on oversimplified armchair analysis, let us leave it to the ones who know how to handle these risks.
I acknowledge risks exist.
But they can be managed.

That's not really free trade.....now is it?
You're using semantics like risks, manage, etc. which all increase costs and effort.

 

[WyattEarp]

China isn't after Greenland, The Panama Canal and Canada.

Good point Squeeze.
China just wants stuff in the Pacific Rim.

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

I think most of us with significant business experience realize that you are a neophyte to this subject.

Ah, the internet expert argument.
I was just waiting for you to claim "significant business experience".
I knew it was coming.
That just means you dont have a response and you dont know enough.
There is no semantics in what I said.
I said there is business risk in doing business with China and it has to be managed just like there is risk in doing business with the US.
This is not to challenge Trumps world view on trade.
This is to not put all our eggs in one basket.
Most Canadians realize that.
We should absolutely diversify and trade with the global south including China.
PS:
I will absolutely acknowledge and take back whatever I have said here, if you are willing to post your real identity, linkedin profile, resume and whatever else I may request to this thread so I can verify your credentials and determine that you are actually qualified to speak on this subject of international trade.

 

[SchlongConery]

Read this because, you wouldn't be the first to approach the global trade equation from this perspective. I believe most journalists probably think this way. In all fairness, there is a vast majority of independent economists who teach and publish on the topic of Triffin's dilemma. You have to be careful not getting sucked into the U.S. political vortex. A Democratic-supporting economist might bend his thoughts to criticize Trump, but never give you full disclosure on the topic of global trade.

For the laymen here, the global trading system works best when countries consume (spend) more as they gain wealth. Increased domestic consumption will increase global consumption. If countries like China as well as Germany suppress domestic consumption through various internal mechanisms, global supply will exceed global consumption on a chronic basis. The country with the reserve currency (The U.S.) is forced to consume more in order to avoid global economic underperformance and stagnation.

Triffin dilemma - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Interesting read, thanks. I wasn't that aware of that theory at all. I have no formal edumacation in economics.

I'm sure President Trump could publish a paper on the theory but just simplified his sophisticated economics plan into "Canada has been very unfair in how they are RIPPING off the United States.".