‘Transgender’ athletes have ‘intolerable’ advantage over real women, new study....

[Big Sleazy]

...afirms

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/t...il&utm_term=0_12387f0e3e-7efedcebfb-400674377

I didn't even have to go to school and get a degree to figire this one out. It's called a pair of balls. It's where a lot of testosterone gets built up. Kind of why sites like this exist. I hat to break it to you but guys have balls and girls don't. Guys in dresses even have balls.

 

[oldjones]

...afirms

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/t...il&utm_term=0_12387f0e3e-7efedcebfb-400674377

I didn't even have to go to school and get a degree to figire this one out. It's called a pair of balls. It's where a lot of testosterone gets built up. Kind of why sites like this exist. I hat to break it to you but guys have balls and girls don't. Guys in dresses even have balls.

However, I take pleasure in emphasizing to you that your source quote its source concluding: While the authors’ scientific conclusions fly in the face of LGBT orthodoxy, their social recommendations will likely be more palatable to trans activists. They suggest that “the existing male/female categories in sport should be abandoned in favour of a more nuanced approach satisfying both inclusion and fairness.”

In other words — mine — performance differences in sports may be gender-related, but they aren't gender-exclusive. There's no reason performance-similar athletes shouldn't compete with each other, irrespective of their genders, whether they're biological determined or socially assumed decisions.

Thanks for further evidence from serious medical researchers.

 

[TeeJay]

These guys make me laugh
Can't have it both ways

Either there is a distinct advantage between males and females OR we are all equal
It can't be both

For that matter why not throw the race card down?
I will argue an African athlete has a distinct advantage against an Asian athlete
Let's segregate the Olympics

 

[oldjones]

These guys make me laugh
Can't have it both ways

Either there is a distinct advantage between males and females OR we are all equal
It can't be both

For that matter why not throw the race card down?
I will argue an African athlete has a distinct advantage against an Asian athlete
Let's segregate the Olympics

Nonsense. We have all sorts of ways in all sorts of fields, especially sports, to allow differently talented/skilled/abled people to compete fairly. That's why welterweights don't box with heavyweights. The most common such sport is golf. One reason its system of handicapping was invented, was precisely to do what you say is impossible. To make competition between men and women possible. But men like it too.

In fact that is exactly the purpose of all those elimination heats and preliminaries that TV never shows, to ensure that the finalists are evenly and fairly matched so the competitions for champion are exciting. As long as they are, who cares what 'race' or gender's involved? They're as irrelevant as language, hairstyle or favourite movie.

If you care, why?

 

[Darts]

I will argue an African athlete has a distinct advantage against an Asian athlete

We should listen to Old Jones. Let's take the 100 metre dash. To be fair, the starting line for the Asian athletes should be at the 20 metre line.

P.S. Just to be clear, I am being sarcastic. Giving some athletes a 20 metre head start is as bad as adding an extra 50 or more SAT points as they do in the U.S. for members of a particular ethnic group.

 

[Smallcock]

I think this is terrific. Let the feminists and transgenders duke it out. They're both extremely confused groups of people.

 

[Zaibetter]

Castor Semenya which looks like a man and has high levels of testosterone won't be running...normal women runners can now get a break...

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/...af-court-ruling-testosterone-levels-1.5230914

 

[TeeJay]

Nonsense. We have all sorts of ways in all sorts of fields, especially sports, to allow differently talented/skilled/abled people to compete fairly. That's why welterweights don't box with heavyweights. The most common such sport is golf. One reason its system of handicapping was invented, was precisely to do what you say is impossible. To make competition between men and women possible. But men like it too.

In fact that is exactly the purpose of all those elimination heats and preliminaries that TV never shows, to ensure that the finalists are evenly and fairly matched so the competitions for champion are exciting. As long as they are, who cares what 'race' or gender's involved? They're as irrelevant as language, hairstyle or favourite movie.

If you care, why?

The argument above is that a transgender athlete has a distinct biological advantage over a female (which is true)
But by that same metric there are tons of other advantages we allow to happen on a daily basis in sports / competitions / life

The prelims basically eliminate everyone else
There is a reason why when you tune into say the Olympics sport A has 10 black guys lining up, B has 10 asians, & C has 10 whites
Genetics

 

[TeeJay]

We should listen to Old Jones. Let's take the 100 metre dash. To be fair, the starting line for the Asian athletes should be at the 20 metre line.

P.S. Just to be clear, I am being sarcastic. Giving some athletes a 20 metre head start is as bad as adding an extra 50 or more SAT points as they do in the U.S. for members of a particular ethnic group.

Oh I agree, BUT I am taking the stance that we are NOT all equal
We get BS stats showing how humans are all so similar or how a guy from Germany has more in common with Kenya than the Netherlands etc
Its nonsense masquerading as science

But once we accept the fact we are not all equal then what?
Give a less intelligent person a better job? Give a weaker person a handicap? Pretend people do not have genitals or hormones?

To me "transgender" is a mental disorder. If a person identified themselves as an amputee and requested that his arm be removed, he most likely would be treated in a mental facility. But if a man requests that his genitals be removed that's perfectly alright. Makes completely no sense at all.

People get their feathers all ruffled when someone suggests this but I think it is true
It's no different than saying someone has a mental handicap (eg retarded)
Doesn't mean they should be discriminated against but seriously what is the point of the psych industry if not to help people with mental issues

 

[oldjones]

The argument above is that a transgender athlete has a distinct biological advantage over a female (which is true)
But by that same metric there are tons of other advantages we allow to happen on a daily basis in sports / competitions / life

The prelims basically eliminate everyone else
There is a reason why when you tune into say the Olympics sport A has 10 black guys lining up, B has 10 asians, & C has 10 whites
Genetics

I'm not sure whose argument above you refer to. I'm only disputing your assertions that men and women must compete separately due to their different characteristics, and there is no practical way they can compete together. In fact we have all sorts of competitions where athletes who greatly differ in physique still manage to compete against each other. And we also have competitions that successfully balance differences. I've mentioned both, and Juan's detail in his post above reinforces the point rather than disproving it. You're actually arguing against yourself with your 'race-genetics' stuff.

If genetically determined characteristics truly mattered, we couldn't have all those 'genetically-differing races' competing with each other. But we do, because the differences between 'races' are no more significant than the differences within them, and the same is true of gender. There are lots of Olympic-level men who run the 100 metres in the Olympics slower than lots of the women. And a note to Darts, the fastest Asian is only a few strides — six-hundredths of a second — behind the fastest African, not 20. The women's record is faster than either, by way more than 20 strides.

 

[oldjones]

Oh I agree, BUT I am taking the stance that we are NOT all equal
We get BS stats showing how humans are all so similar or how a guy from Germany has more in common with Kenya than the Netherlands etc
Its nonsense masquerading as science

But once we accept the fact we are not all equal then what?
Give a less intelligent person a better job? Give a weaker person a handicap? Pretend people do not have genitals or hormones?



People get their feathers all ruffled when someone suggests this but I think it is true
It's no different than saying someone has a mental handicap (eg retarded)
Doesn't mean they should be discriminated against but seriously what is the point of the psych industry if not to help people with mental issues

If we were all equal, there would be no competitions at all.

Once we accept that we are all different and not all equal, then we realize there's little point or interest and no true competition in unbalanced matches. Which is why we don't put heavies in the ring with flyweights or run finals without eliminations. We manage to do all of that for good and proper reasons that have zero to do with gender.

You still haven't offered one reason why we can't just do more of the same without the pointless business of dividing athletes by what's between their legs. Does it really make a difference whether that bobsled or sailboat crew is all women, all men or even a mix? IF it does, then what difference? If a woman makes the qualifying time, why shouldn't she run against men?

In fact people manage to hold all sorts of gender-free competitions all the time, in all sorts of sports, so your 'objections', whatever they may be, have already been dealt with by someone, somewhere.

As f'rinstance in Boston, where men's and women'r Marathon record-times are just 16 minutes apart and everyone runs together (along with the wheelchair competitors who finish faster than both). What exactly are you arguing for? To 'protect' or preserve what?

 

[The Oracle]

. There are lots of Olympic-level men who run the 100 metres in the Olympics slower than lots of the women. .

It's not even close. The 1744th best all time male is still ahead of Florence Griffith-Joyner all time best time.

https://www.iaaf.org/records/all-time-toplists/sprints/100-metres/outdoor/women/senior

https://www.iaaf.org/records/all-time-toplists/sprints/100-metres/outdoor/men/senior?page=1

 

[TeeJay]

@oldjones
They need to decide once and for all which way they want it

Either no restrictions whatsoever (claim that all genders / races / psych profiles) have a chance
Or segregate everything


I have always said (and agree with) facts such as women and men are physically different
But as mentioned above this exact same argument can be applied along racial lines
Get rid of the left wing rhetoric and segregate people
Disband the insanity that masquerades as the HRTO


Although you have mentioned paraolympic type athletes obviously (imo) a mechanical assist (your example of wheelchair "running") I can't imagine anyone trying to claim they would be equal since now you are going beyond genetics

 

[oldjones]

@oldjones

I'm still confused at what you are saying, please make it simple for me.

Are you saying that, for example:

1. Mike Tyson should be able (if he was still competing) to fight a woman, for the title of the heavyweight champion of the world?

2. Mike Tyson should be able ( if he was still competing) to fight a woman, for the title of the heavyweight champion of the world, but we should tweak the rules a little bit, to make it more gender inclusive. For instance, he can't hit her?

1. Why not, as long as they were reasonably evenly matched? You described that business yourself. 2. Why would we? Do you have a point here?

 

[Jasmine Raine]

It is clear that a trans woman would have a better advantage over a cis-woman. And I think the other way around too and therefore I don't think they should compete along side others in their preferred gender categories.

Only because trans people needs to use hormones to maintain their change. It makes up a different biological chemistry in the body. We already ban the use of steroids. Which is similar to the hormone testosterone. It seems like a no brainer it me.

We have able-bodied Olympics and Paralympics. Have translympics as well. We have gender based sports so have trans-based sports. It may take some time for their to be enough trans people to make a baseball team but that is not the problem of cis-gendered people.

 

[oldjones]

@oldjones
They need to decide once and for all which way they want it

Either no restrictions whatsoever (claim that all genders / races / psych profiles) have a chance
Or segregate everything


I have always said (and agree with) facts such as women and men are physically different
But as mentioned above this exact same argument can be applied along racial lines
Get rid of the left wing rhetoric and segregate people
Disband the insanity that masquerades as the HRTO


Although you have mentioned paraolympic type athletes obviously (imo) a mechanical assist (your example of wheelchair "running") I can't imagine anyone trying to claim they would be equal since now you are going beyond genetics

None of that makes sense to me. Who says 'they' need to decide once and for all? And decide what exactly? No one but you is talking about a free-for-all without categories and divisions. Besides we tinker with those continually, what's tad more adjusting?

Of course men and women are physically different, some of us have pussies and tits, some of us have dicks and balls. But athletics don't involve or require either. Only history and prejudices make them relevant at all.

Please point out any left-wing rhetoric you'd like us to stop using. For myself, I'd appreciate you not repeatedly dragging that political dead-horse in here. All I'm talking about and advocating is that any and all athletes who are reasonably equally matched should be allowed to compete with each other. As an athletic descriptor, gender is as irrelevant as 'race'. No politics in that, right or left.

Why should anyone's gender be a matter of concern to anyone but them and who they have sex with? It's how fast they are or how high they can jump.

 

[TeeJay]

@OJ
For Olympics? That would mean "they" are the IOC or other major organizations who run the sports
Since they are keepers of the keys I assumed that would be obvious

What you refer to as "tinkering" is a joke really
One year people get eliminated for things like cough syrups which share properties with steroids while HGH is legal
Now they are trying to FORCE certain athletes to TAKE drugs in order to SUPPRESS their NATURAL hormone levels


As another example there was an issue with some female runner who was stripped of eligibility because their testing deems she is a biological male (despite being born without male genitalia)
The divisions as they exist now simply do not work, but at the same time we (in principle) acknowledge there are some severe genetic advantages
Should we have another special Olympics for the 4 runners who are born female but have male chromo patterns? The attempts to categorize and segregate just aren't working

Link to news from last month:
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/trackandfield/caster-semenya-iaaf-1.5179748

 

[shack]

If genetically determined characteristics truly mattered, we couldn't have all those 'genetically-differing races' competing with each other. But we do, because the differences between 'races' are no more significant than the differences within them, and the same is true of gender.

I believe that that is where you are wrong.

The assumption is that all races are equal with some having certain small advantages over others. Who can possibly say that males and females develop anywhere close to equal physically? Anyone who feels that there is only a minor difference should have no issue with females competing against males across the board.

I am 100% for LGBTQ rights, but in the field of athletics/physicality transgender females have a verrry big advantage.

 

[oldjones]

çç

I believe that that is where you are wrong.

The assumption is that all races are equal with some having certain small advantages over others. Who can possibly say that males and females develop anywhere close to equal physically? Anyone who feels that there is only a minor difference should have no issue with females competing against males across the board.

I am 100% for LGBTQ rights, but in the field of athletics/physicality transgender females have a verrry big advantage.

I don't 'FEEL', I know what 'IS'. The science in the article above, re-states it: Men and women can compete with each other on reasonably equal bases WHEN the performance differences are minor. But I wind up arguing with guys who 'FEEL' that ALL females are so different from ALL males that the they could NEVER compete together. They never address the 'minor differences' case at all.

Eliminating major differences to make an even competition down to the minor advantages that keep it close and interesting has been a universal in sports since forever. Anyone who can't see that should be trying to abolish weight classes in boxing, and demanding open entry for all in the 100M.

I think Teejay might tell you different about 'races'. His assumption seems to be that all yellowish people with DNA originating in Asia are noticeably disadvantaged when competing against dark-brown people with African DNA. Yet we have no trouble with the two colours competing together (with other colours too, and without DNA race tests). He offers that as a reason for continuing the arbitrary division by gender. Even though no one has cited any evil outcome as a result of not dividing athletics arbitrarily by 'race'.

You closed with a mention of the the much smaller, more specialized issue of trans-gendered competitors, but that's of little interest to me and I haven't addressed it. If we have objective standards irrespective of gender, for determining competitor match-ups, who would care?
------
I may have mis-stated TJ's position. If I did I apologize, invite him to state it better himself, and hope he'll view it as a bonus opportunity

 

[basketcase]

...
What you refer to as "tinkering" is a joke really
One year people get eliminated for things like cough syrups which share properties with steroids while HGH is legal
Now they are trying to FORCE certain athletes to TAKE drugs in order to SUPPRESS their NATURAL hormone levels


As another example there was an issue with some female runner who was stripped of eligibility because their testing deems she is a biological male (despite being born without male genitalia)
The divisions as they exist now simply do not work, but at the same time we (in principle) acknowledge there are some severe genetic advantages ...

Amazing that the IIAF decided that abnormally high natural testosterone levels in women was unfair but abnormally high natural testosterone in men was perfectly fine.

Also HGH is banned by the IOC.

p.s. The discussion is sort of stupid. Sports at the professional/Olympic level are more about entertainment and profit than they are about fair competition.