Are people running out of money?

[tastingyou]

For guys with a wife , one or 2 kids or even childless, a mortgage and a couple of cars I honestly have no idea how they can hobby [ while exercising some financial responsibility ] on family income of much less than 200k before various taxes reduces that to 120k.

As far as for older guys with no mortgage and no kids to support and maybe even single again the mathematics is far different. For someone like myself who is on his own I can spend 20% of my disposable income on the hobby if I choose and still live quite comfortably . And this is what I enjoy the most now that I am in my 70's.

 

[CLOUD 500]

If people are running out of money then it is interesting to note how Indy rates keep going up. Obviously there are people with money to spend.

 

[Liquidity]

In their defense. It flies in the face of reality that women can actually do sex work for a living. Seems a tall order to do something you can barely stand with strangers who you cannot stand. I honestly don't know how they can do it. In the past I had a couple of long term connections with a couple of women with whom I clicked and they genuinely liked me, but that seems like a high and unlikely expectation generally. seems to rank as a disgusting job.

No doubt about that. Maybe 99% of women are naturally not built for this industry work letting strange and unattractive men inside them. However, even 1% in a city of millions is a lot of attractive young girls.

If you were around in 2015 or before, you’d have an idea of how depressing the industry is as of 2025. No exaggeration escorts on the level of prime Mia Malkova and Samantha Saint could be had for 120 HH and with DFK, bbbj, and cof for an upcharge. And all natural before this whole BBL wave. And 2015 was a boom time for most people in the city, so one would expect most young women would rather work a job with very high disposable income as compared to today where they are facing absurd costs on 2017 incomes. Basic economic logic would suggest we should be in an environment where more young women would be considering this rather than in the boom times, but that’s not happening at all. It’s quite fascinating.

 

[Butler1000]

In their defense. It flies in the face of reality that women can actually do sex work for a living. Seems a tall order to do something you can barely stand with strangers who you cannot stand. I honestly don't know how they can do it. In the past I had a couple of long term connections with a couple of women with whom I clicked and they genuinely liked me, but that seems like a high and unlikely expectation generally. seems to rank as a disgusting job.

The dont call it the oldest profession without good cause. And more do it, in various forms, from escort, to OF, sugar daddy, trading up boyfriends, yacht girls, strippers, massage, porn and more.

Women are just as dirty and sexual as men. And get that they can command a price for services. They do it because despite what they tell you, the ones in it generally want to be there.

 

[Butler1000]

If people are running out of money then it is interesting to note how Indy rates keep going up. Obviously there are people with money to spend.

There is lots on money in this town. Toronto is a conservative town at heart. You see far less flashy cash and more suit cash here. They pay for the discretion. It's why the good indies can do it.

 

[whitewaterguy]

It’s not a hobby for poor people. Maybe take up pickleball instead

 

[farquhar]

Second, I suspect a lot of the boom in the industry were johns using their house as an ATM while prices rocketed every year. That game has slowed down dramatically over the past year or so, and banks are becoming more stringent with the HELOCs and those who don’t have the high incomes to justify large balances.

Banks love HELOCs, as johns who use their house as an ATM effectively end up paying their Mortgage twice.

One thing that is happening, according to what I've seen on Reddit and RedFlagDeals, is Banks are tightening up the Unsecured Credit (Credit Cards and LOCs).

BMO, in particular, has been reducing limits and closing accounts on customers without warning. They are allowed to do this, per the Terms of the Lending Agreement. If the economy goes to shit, and there are massive job losses, the Banks don't want people drawing down on those Unsecured Lines to pay their Bills, as it exposes the Shareholders to increased Loan Losses.

As for the HELOCs, technically the Bank can call those loans at any time - but the Bank has the house as collateral and the maximum Loan-To-Value is 65%, which ensures the Bank has its ass covered even with the deflation in resale values that have been taken place recently, with condominium owners in particular taking it on the chin.

 

[farquhar]

It seems that all "the hot" SP's who really excite me are $400-$500/hr. It seems I have champagne taste on a beer budget.

I can justify spending up to $300/hr for service. Anything beyond that is hard to wrap my head around.

 

[Robert Mugabe]

No doubt about that. Maybe 99% of women are naturally not built for this industry work letting strange and unattractive men inside them. However, even 1% in a city of millions is a lot of attractive young girls.

If you were around in 2015 or before, you’d have an idea of how depressing the industry is as of 2025. No exaggeration escorts on the level of prime Mia Malkova and Samantha Saint could be had for 120 HH and with DFK, bbbj, and cof for an upcharge. And all natural before this whole BBL wave. And 2015 was a boom time for most people in the city, so one would expect most young women would rather work a job with very high disposable income as compared to today where they are facing on absurd costs on average on 2017 incomes. Basic economic logic would suggest we should be in an environment where more young women would be considering this rather than in the boom times, but that’s not happening at all. It’s quite fascinating.

I was around before 2015. 1973 to be exact. Used to see a couple of beautiful black ladies who worked at the Warwick house. Arrange to meet them at Larry's Hideaway for 45 minutes or so. $30.00 for the lady. $10.00 for Larry. Sigh..... Mind you. At that time, that was close to a day's pay. Same cost factor today really.

 

[Liquidity]

Banks love HELOCs, as johns who use their house as an ATM effectively end up paying their Mortgage twice.

One thing that is happening, according to what I've seen on Reddit and RedFlagDeals, is Banks are tightening up the Unsecured Credit (Credit Cards and LOCs).

BMO, in particular, has been reducing limits and closing accounts on customers without warning. They are allowed to do this, per the Terms of the Lending Agreement. If the economy goes to shit, and there are massive job losses, the Banks don't want people drawing down on those Unsecured Lines to pay their Bills, as it exposes the Shareholders to increased Loan Losses.

As for the HELOCs, technically the Bank can call those loans at any time - but the Bank has the house as collateral and the maximum Loan-To-Value is 65%, which ensures the Bank has its ass covered even with the deflation in resale values that have been taken place recently, with condominium owners in particular taking it on the chin.

HELOCs were the main one. I have a few friends who are high up in some of the banks, as unfortunately, HELOC loan numbers and the liabilities carried by the banks is not something OSFI publishes, but it got well out of control around 2018. You have a lot of homeowners with 60-75k household income carrying balances north of 500k, and when the music kept going, withdrawing 100-150k annually to live a life well beyond what they could have ever hoped to achieve in the real economy.

But, around late 2023, banks started to restrict HELOC lending drastically as the party was over by then. Now you need the 200k+ household income to comfortably keep drawing down HELOCs without major bank scrutiny, as it should be. Things were pretty topsy turvy for a couple of years. You had no shortage of median income older folks driving 911s, going on trips to the French Rivieira, and fueling drug addictions and other vices on household incomes of 70k. That was clearly unsustainable.

 

[farquhar]

You had no shortage of median income older folks driving 911s, going on trips to the French Rivieira, and fueling drug addictions and other vices on household incomes of 70k. That was clearly unsustainable.

I suppose CHIP and Equitable Bank can serve that segment of the market through their Reverse Mortgage products; of course, if the kids were expecting to inherit the house, they'll be shit outta luck.

 

[Robert Mugabe]

I suppose CHIP and Equitable Bank can serve that segment of the market through their Reverse Mortgage products; of course, if the kids were expecting to inherit the house, they'll be shit outta luck.

The kids should read this book. It will explain that inheritances are not good for you.

 

[drlove]

I can’t complain… No mortgage, no debt and my investments are up. Life is good!

 

[drlove]

I'm doing ok but definitely inflation has eaten into my budget so my pooning visits have been limited to 1 or 2 a month. Car insurance premiums are way up. I just had to fork out $1,500 for a new laptop and about $3,000 for healthcare. My office rent is going up for the 1st time in 3 years as well not bad though only 4.5%. Still it all adds up.

Also, home insurance premiums have skyrocketed, which adds to the pressure.

 

[drlove]

I

In decent shape. About to get a decent chunk of cash from a childless relative. Bye bye mortgage, last of debt(had to take some on for house repairs) and I nice sized chunk left over for investment. Means my personal disposable income will go up a bit.

But honestly I'm also seeing a lack of service quality. I think the pandemic, OF, has changed the game for now. A good recession could change things again.

I’ve wondered about that myself… is the dearth of ‘super hot’ providers due (at least in part) to the rise of Only Fans? Perhaps some see the online approach as less labour intensive so to speak, while still bringing in the same sales volume, or possibly more!

 

[Butler1000]

I

I’ve wondered about that myself… is the dearth of ‘super hot’ providers due (at least in part) to the rise of Only Fans? Perhaps some see the online approach as less labour intensive so to speak, while still bringing in the same sales volume, or possibly more!

It made a difference in all live sex work. Strippers, Massage and Escort. Thing is as AI begins to take over on OF(it's going to happen) you may see a resurgence to live work as that will be the only option.

 

[drlove]

If people are running out of money then it is interesting to note how Indy rates keep going up. Obviously there are people with money to spend.

Also, to put things into perspective I can remember agencies charging approximately $230 per hour back in the early 2000’s. Adjusted for inflation, this works out to about $400 per hour today. That said, things haven’t changed as much as one might think…

 

[BennyhillTO]

To me traffic is as big of a limitation as money. It takes forever to go anywhere, the combination of higher prices and brutal traffic is an errection killer.

I'm the same buddy. Traffic kills the mood but I'm lucky I have several regulars really close to me.

 

[CLOUD 500]

Also, to put things into perspective I can remember agencies charging approximately $230 per hour back in the early 2000’s. Adjusted for inflation, this works out to about $400 per hour today. That said, things haven’t changed as much as one might think…

Well my comment was more directed at Indys. Agency rates are good, but Indy rates have exploded since covid. And true for inflation but Canada is having a productivity crisis which means even though inflation has went up, salaries for the average joe working a job has remain rather stagnant. Wealthy people wealth has went up exponentially. I just think the business for Indys are being driven by the wealthy. There is obviously enough wealthy clients to support Indy high rates.

 

[The Options Menu]

I'm the same buddy. Traffic kills the mood but I'm lucky I have several regulars really close to me.

I live near the subway and have a vehicle. It takes a very special lady, or someone that's been very hard to arrange a session with, to get me to drive to a session. Arriving half frazzled from GTA driving and finding parking doesn't put me in my sexy place. While the TTC is far from commuter utopia that's the reason why so many of my sessions are walking distance from subway or streetcar lines. I suppose I could take a cab or rideshare, but I kind of like being able to zone out on my way to a session and I'd have a hard time not chatting with a driver. So the TTC it is (except for busses).