Hmmm. Great post. But you pose quite a dilemma here. Which is the party of bikers, gangsters, murderers, dealers, enforcers, and other assorted scum? Not even the Liberals would enjoy receiving an endorsement from the HA!dude abides said:
Blogger leaked order to raid Hells Angels
- Thread starter Galahad
- Start date
OK you got me on that one. I forgot about that shooting. However I believe that was more of a mafia thing then it was a biker war or something like that. Most if not almost all stray bullet and public beatings etc in GTA are between gangstas fighting each other.rubmeister100 said:
When I said trust me I know I simply meant that there is a big difference in the mentality and attitudes of gangstas and bikers. I know because over the years I have met and or dealt with both. A gangsta will shoot you dead just for taking an extra long glance at his gf. Or for not tipping your hat when you walk by. Or for dissing him in a whole multitude of other different ways. For you and most I'm sure a criminal is a criminal and I'm not condoning any criminal activity. As I posted earlier I have witnessed first hand the devastating effects of addictions. Addiction took away two of my brothers and my sister. May they RIP. I'm simply saying given the choice I rather deal with a biker then gangstas.
My mother is already dead. She too in part was taken by addiction. Addiction to prescriptions though. Nothing to do with the above.rubmeister100 said:
Not all cops are corrupt showboat types... as I already posted before in this thread and some others not all cops are bad cops. However to answer you question when or if a crime happens to me or any of my loved ones depending on circumstances I usually don't call the cops. I take care of it myself.rubmeister100 said:
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As I noted in the other thread, trying to defend the HA by pointing out corruption by the police is a logical fallacy, and does nothing to further the arguement that the HA are just good old boys looking to have some fun.
Is there a problem with some police? Absolutely. But is the system itself corrupt? Not really.
Are there guys that ride bikes that are not doing illegal things? Of course there are.
But suggesting that the HA are innocent of any wrong doings is simply naive.
Will those arrested get their day in court? Yes they will. And if the crown fails to prove its case, the HA will walk.
Is there a problem with some police? Absolutely. But is the system itself corrupt? Not really.
Are there guys that ride bikes that are not doing illegal things? Of course there are.
But suggesting that the HA are innocent of any wrong doings is simply naive.
Will those arrested get their day in court? Yes they will. And if the crown fails to prove its case, the HA will walk.
CapitalGuy is.........
I've never talked to a Hell's Angel or any other biker gang member about their rides. Too scared to approach them. I guess that's my problem though, seeing as how they too are nice guys.
a proud rider of a 1986 Honda Shadow VT1100. Now in my 27th year of riding that big cruiser. Never been stopped by a cop. I've had a couple interesting conversations with cops over how their government-issued Kawasakis and Harleys compared to my Honda, but those were quite civilized interactions, in Timmy's parking lots. Nice guys.Sheik said:
I've never talked to a Hell's Angel or any other biker gang member about their rides. Too scared to approach them. I guess that's my problem though, seeing as how they too are nice guys.
I've never ran afoul of an HA member. I seem to piss off every cop in peel region though. And despite what the media says, I'm more afraid of the Police than I am of Hells Angels.
In fact I have some serious issues about the way the media is trying to say we have a problem with Hells Angels. I just don't see it happening. Maybe there are members that deal drugs, but I'm not aware of any. Maybe there's violence but again I'm not aware of any. I think this HA thing is way to overblown and is being used to justify budgets.
I'm glad this blogger leaked the info. Siezing of property should not be allowed unless a person has been found guilty of a crime. It's wrong. And just because it happens to a group of people who are out of public favour does not make it any less wrong.
In fact I have some serious issues about the way the media is trying to say we have a problem with Hells Angels. I just don't see it happening. Maybe there are members that deal drugs, but I'm not aware of any. Maybe there's violence but again I'm not aware of any. I think this HA thing is way to overblown and is being used to justify budgets.
I'm glad this blogger leaked the info. Siezing of property should not be allowed unless a person has been found guilty of a crime. It's wrong. And just because it happens to a group of people who are out of public favour does not make it any less wrong.
Are you serious?BuffNaked said:
You can't be serious. Even if the media is a little biased, it's not so biased that it invents shootings and murders.
So you would rather undermine a police investigation, and have paid informants inside the justice ministry, than have the law changed properly? In other words, you think the appropriate solution is a corrupt govt. that can be paid off by those under investigation?
I'm not so sure it's wrong. If you damage my property I can seize yours without you being charged with a crime, under civil law. The standard for seizure of property is and should be significantly lower than the standard for depriving someone of their freedom. I think that's right.
Ridiculous, Sheik. It wasn't exactly going to stay a secret was it? It was going to be public knowledge just DAYS later. In what dream world were the police going to seize the club house without either the police or the HA themselves telling the media afterwards?Sheik said:
All he did was give some criminals advance warning that a search warrant was about to be executed.
This just shows that the HA have infiltrated the police force and are undermining our democracy, that's what it shows.
Yup.fuji said:
I am. I see alot of shootings in the news in the past few weeks. I don't remember if they HA related. Maybe you can refresh my memory?
I'm glad this investigation is undermined because it will help bring the issue of siezing assets. Paid informants are a dirty tactic and police shouldn't be at all surprised when a criminal enterprise uses the same tactics against them. Although in this case maybe I can spin it as a whistleblower?
If you don't want a corrupt government, then you have to hold those with authority responsible. No more slaps on the wrists for Cops who break the very laws they enforce. No more paid leave. You fuck up and you are gone. Find a job somewhere else. All records should be public and all internal investigations should be handled by independent groups. That's the only way to handle corruption.
I'll see you in court if you try that. And I will have all my assets at my disposal to defend my self. Taking property away from individuals is a way of undermining thier defence. You can't defend yourself if you can't afford a lawyer because your accounts have been frozen and assets have been seized. Hardly fair and hardly right.
Internal Mafia or Hells Angels? More like organized crime. I see how you spun that. I don't know the details of the hit or why it happened, but you named dropped HA in there and now they are guilty by association. Now I did a quick google on Louise Russo and even the RCMP press release makes no mention of the HA. Just organized crime. So not to be dismissive but this was a bad example you picked.rubmeister100 said:
Oh and I love those veal california sammiches
One final thought, and i'm gone
The horrific event you described that crippled an innocent women is a source of profound grief for her, for her family, for the city, and indeed for those that suffer, albiet far less, from guilt by association.
Having said that, i will say this. What one man did with others that were in no way connected with the rest of us, is no more our doing than the killing of the woman stashed behind the officer's rec room wall.
All men in all walks of life deserve to be judged by their own deeds, and tr somewhat it's true, by the company they keep. I am very proud of the men i call my brothers, and will continue to fight to be judged fairly, by the truth and not by a campaign of smears and exadurations.
"If I am to be run over by injustice, I prefer to be hit standing up."
The horrific event you described that crippled an innocent women is a source of profound grief for her, for her family, for the city, and indeed for those that suffer, albiet far less, from guilt by association.
Having said that, i will say this. What one man did with others that were in no way connected with the rest of us, is no more our doing than the killing of the woman stashed behind the officer's rec room wall.
All men in all walks of life deserve to be judged by their own deeds, and tr somewhat it's true, by the company they keep. I am very proud of the men i call my brothers, and will continue to fight to be judged fairly, by the truth and not by a campaign of smears and exadurations.
"If I am to be run over by injustice, I prefer to be hit standing up."
So your view is that no matter how many crimes HA members commit, no matter how organized those crimes are, that the HA organization itself can never be a criminal organization because only individuals can be criminals.ImanHa said:
Meanwhile, the rest of Canadians do think there is such a thing as a criminal organization, and we think HA is one.
No, not at all. I said that pot growing and SC bouncing were ok as long as there were not stray bullets. I am not defending biker gangs, I have no problem with the police targeting them, as long as they are afforded reasonable rights until proven guilty.Serpent said:
I was just curious about how much actual intentional innocent victim crimes they commit. Fuji has made good points that even things like pot growing lead to corruption of the police and the destruction of democracy, I agree with him. I am just curious about what the biker gangs are actually involved with.
Let's not forget about the 11 year old kid in Montreal who was killed by a car bomb set off in the HA vs. Rock Machine war. If you're looking for a reason why the "fucking cops" have a "hardon" for the HA, look no further than that incident--the police ramped up their efforts to crack down on the bikers in response to the escalating violence and the public anger around the death of a child. Rightly so.
If you don't want to be subject to an "unfair" amount of police attention don't kill children.
If you don't want to be subject to an "unfair" amount of police attention don't kill children.
For the record, two years ago an Ontario judge ruled that the Hell's Angels was a criminal organization, one that was engaged in extortion (not exactly a victimless crime):
"[1090] I am satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that during the time period specified in count two of the indictment, the HAMC as it existed in Canada was a criminal organization. I am satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that both Mr. X and Mr. Y committed the offense of extortion in association with that criminal organization." (I removed the real names).
That's pretty clear no? Read the ruling yourself for the analysis and justification for that statement, the entire argument is stated there better and in more detail than we could ever state it here:
http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2005/2005canlii24240/2005canlii24240.html
So far as I know that statement has not been struck down by any appeal, so it's a judicial fact in Ontario at the moment. (Maybe there's some appeal I don't know about?) Of course it says as it existed at that time--so maybe the HA's could say that they've changed in the last few years and are no longer a criminal organization engaged in extortion, but I haven't seen anything convincing me that they've changed their ways.
"[1090] I am satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that during the time period specified in count two of the indictment, the HAMC as it existed in Canada was a criminal organization. I am satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that both Mr. X and Mr. Y committed the offense of extortion in association with that criminal organization." (I removed the real names).
That's pretty clear no? Read the ruling yourself for the analysis and justification for that statement, the entire argument is stated there better and in more detail than we could ever state it here:
http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2005/2005canlii24240/2005canlii24240.html
So far as I know that statement has not been struck down by any appeal, so it's a judicial fact in Ontario at the moment. (Maybe there's some appeal I don't know about?) Of course it says as it existed at that time--so maybe the HA's could say that they've changed in the last few years and are no longer a criminal organization engaged in extortion, but I haven't seen anything convincing me that they've changed their ways.
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Ok,google this and you'll find news stories to support each of the following points:C Dick said:
1. Hells Angels leadership across the US has been prosecuted under RICO statutes. Like Al-Qaeda, HAs are hard to eliminate because they operate in cells - as someone said "Think global, trash local". Google Richard “Smilin’ Rick” Fabel for news on a Washington trial of their West Coast president. When they traffick drugs - not just pot but cocaine and more, they kill innocents. Make no mistake.
2. Hells Angels control criminal activities in US and other countries including Europe, Canada and Australia: The FBI estimates that Hells Angels rake in $1Billion in drug sale revenues. That's not "isolated elements":
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/27/1088274626729.html?from=storylhs
http://www.dea.gov/pubs/states/newsrel/sanfran042106a.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/this_world/3331701.stm
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/09/13/hells_angels040913.html
3. Hells Angels have access to weapons like anti tank LAWs and grenade launchers, not exactly precision target weaponry:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4350878.stm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3071659/
So either this group attracts a lot of criminals which is a coincidence. But that's hard to believe since their screening includes verifying W2s and Social Security numbers - which makes it harder for the US LE to infliltrate them since the US Congress has prohibited LE from using fake SSNs.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/bikergangs/
From the CBC
According to Criminal Intelligence Service Canada, the Hells Angels is the foremost organized crime group in the country, topping traditional Mafia and ethnic gangs.
The Hells Angels began in 1948 in California and has grown to a network of 1,800 members in 22 countries.
It's estimated that Canada has about 500 full-fledged members in 32 active chapters across the country. The largest and most-feared chapter of the Hells Angels was formed in Montreal. In 1977, it merged with another gang called the Popeyes.
The FBI estimates the Hells Angels takes in $1 billion a year worldwide from drug trafficking.
In Quebec, the Rock Machine emerged in 1986 and quickly became the biggest rival of the Hells Angels. A turf war between the two gangs in the late 1990s claimed 150 lives, including two prison guards and 11-year-old Daniel Desrochers, who died when a car bomb exploded outside a biker hangout.
His death and the outrage that followed prompted Bill C-95, the legislation that stiffens penalties for convicted offenders who are shown to be members of established criminal organizations.
According to the CISC's 2004 report, the anti-gang law seems to be having an impact. The agency says the law has persuaded two of Canada's major bike gangs - the Outlaws and the Bandidos - to keep a low profile. The report added that of seven Outlaws chapters in Canada, only three were operating with any kind of stability.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/bikergangs/
From the CBC
According to Criminal Intelligence Service Canada, the Hells Angels is the foremost organized crime group in the country, topping traditional Mafia and ethnic gangs.
The Hells Angels began in 1948 in California and has grown to a network of 1,800 members in 22 countries.
It's estimated that Canada has about 500 full-fledged members in 32 active chapters across the country. The largest and most-feared chapter of the Hells Angels was formed in Montreal. In 1977, it merged with another gang called the Popeyes.
The FBI estimates the Hells Angels takes in $1 billion a year worldwide from drug trafficking.
In Quebec, the Rock Machine emerged in 1986 and quickly became the biggest rival of the Hells Angels. A turf war between the two gangs in the late 1990s claimed 150 lives, including two prison guards and 11-year-old Daniel Desrochers, who died when a car bomb exploded outside a biker hangout.
His death and the outrage that followed prompted Bill C-95, the legislation that stiffens penalties for convicted offenders who are shown to be members of established criminal organizations.
According to the CISC's 2004 report, the anti-gang law seems to be having an impact. The agency says the law has persuaded two of Canada's major bike gangs - the Outlaws and the Bandidos - to keep a low profile. The report added that of seven Outlaws chapters in Canada, only three were operating with any kind of stability.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/bikergangs/
