The Porn Dude

Can we discuss Arab rights in Arab States.

onthebottom

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Other Wanderer said:
I've said this about 20x, so what you interpret as condescension is more like absolute frustration with a tribe of people who create a problem, wonder why it exists, and then get mad when it shows up on their doorstep.

Defining Problem - Dictatorship

The Middle East is fucked up precisely because the US is running the same colonial policy in the area that its predecessors, the British, ran too. The cornerstone of that policy was the idea that resource control, specifically oil, was a zero sum game, and one had to own the regimes to own the oil.

You continue to come back with this nonsense that the US isn't the only one funding them. TQM chimed in rubbish about the Soviets. The Soviets never had the regional control the US did, because, surprise, surprise, it is very hard to convert deeply religious people to hard-core Communists. Besides, as TQM and you never replied, the Russians have been a non-factor for close to a decade, and US support for dictators has not moved one iota.

Without US support, which is personal to the dictator, comprehensive to his armed forces, secret police, and instruments of repression, the support of other countries (France, Germany, Britain, whatever) is meaningless.

The US is absolutely responsible, to a great degree, to the largest real problem in the Middle East, the repression of ordinary citizens by brutal governments, done in the name of resource control.

Terrorism and Dictatorship

The central problem the West has identified, terrorism, as coming from the Middle East, is laughably easy to solve. Except we don't want to acknowledge the reality of solving it. The kind of violence we face is being launched by private armies. When the public sector fails to do something for decades, it isn't surprising that the private sector steps in ,and the public sector does nothing about it.

The public sector, the government, in Middle Eastern countries, has no legitimacy, popular support, etc. So when private warlords (Bin Laden, etc.) create their own armies ,there is no popular support to do anything about them - why bother, when they act as a counter-weight to brutal regimes that people are fed up with the US funding - why not fuck them as they fuck us, goes village idiot thinking over there.

If you want to solve terrorism, you allow legitimate governments to do what legitimate governments do - arrest, kill, finish off criminals, with massive public support needed in any country to catch a band of criminals. If there are criminals in government, why does anyone feel motivated to address the criminals in the streets?

The US has done nothing to signal that it will not militarily overthrow a democratic government if it doesn't like the results of that democracy. Hey, even a dictatorship like China found out you can't live in a dreamworld for too long when you have to feed people - you grow up and start to trade with neighbours to survive. You can't drink oil - it has to be sold somewhere, to someone, and the biggest buyers are here. Any legitimate government would see that, and even your favourite whipping boy here, Iran, dutifully sells its oil to Europeans who make its market.

The solution is pretty simple - stop backing thug regimes, stop overthrowing those who replace them with popular support, get rid of this xenophobic reaction to Islam, and just have the patience to recognize that even if we don't like a regime, it will eventually have to do business with us because there is no place else to go.

And then, you'll be able to wipe out private armies and many other problems as a condition of joining the real world.
Looks like some in Europe see the same problem there...

http://www.xxx.org.uk/pdf/essay_youngs_arab_democracy.pdf

I think we agree on the issue just not where the blame lies. There were dictators violation human rights in the Arab world before we were a player there and they're doing the same thing now - I think you can solve for the constant.

OTB
 

TQM

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o.w.

I'm always glad to chime in.

Please tell me over the past decade which dictators in the Middle East have been kept in power by the U.S. against the forces of democracy. Please tell me which actions the U.S. has taken to prop up these dictators against a democratic process.

You are aware, I assume that at least a few ME nations have partaken in elections? Is this in spite of U.S. policy or a result of U.S. policy?

Just wondering.
 

Anderson

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Feb 7, 2007
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Hey TQM - you told me not to use the word ''partake '' grrrr..

OW, your imagination is very creative.

I do though agree that the answer is to solve the dictatorships in those countries.

If you want to go lobby there ( in any one of the 21.5 of them ) I will gladly pay for your ticket as an experiment so this board can see the result .
 

Anderson

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Ok , so I am understanding this a little better by the responses and also even more so by the non responses.

Arab rights in Israel ( where they have more rights than in any home country) are important to many .

Palestinian rights in the liberated territories are also very important ( where they have more rights than in Palestinian controlled areas) to many.

Arab rights in other Arab countries are not important .

Got'cha

Ok, back to your regular scheduled Israel/US bashing-sorry for any disruption.
 

TQM

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marcy

I used partake in the non-biblical sense.

My position is that democracy counts - and none of the nations in the Middle East are there yet, except, possibly Iraq - which clearly has other problems at the moment.

I don't see Israel as a democracy either though, for the record.
 

Anderson

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Dr, Spin

Iraq maybe is but Israel ain't , hmmm.

You just want me to engage but I won't.

If only that finely tuned microscope of yours could look the other way.

TQM , could it stand for ''The Quiz Master'' perchance ?
 

TQM

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Two counts against Israel -

1) By constitution, it is a "Jewish state". That alone gives special status to some over others - and that is at the very heart of what a democracy is not.

(By the same argument, the U.S., when it had slaves, was not a democracy). (I'm not comparing Arabs in Israel to slaves - I'm just saying in the truest sense of the term, Israel, by its constitution, violates a broad equality principle.)

2) Its actions. Non-Jews are dramatically underrepresented in parliament (meaning Arabs) and too many steps are taken to discourage Arabs in Israel from becoming citizens.

The bottom line is any state that defines itself based on a religion isn't, in the broadest sense of the term, a democracy.
 

scouser1

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TQM said:
I'm always glad to chime in.

Please tell me over the past decade which dictators in the Middle East have been kept in power by the U.S. against the forces of democracy. Please tell me which actions the U.S. has taken to prop up these dictators against a democratic process.

You are aware, I assume that at least a few ME nations have partaken in elections? Is this in spite of U.S. policy or a result of U.S. policy?

Just wondering.

again Algeria 1992, the first open and free elections in the Arab world get shut down after the results are brought in that the winners arent to France's, the US, and the Algerian military's liking.

as for someone mentioning that Arabs would prefer to live in Israel rather than their own Arab country, well thats the thing they cant live in Israel because they arent Jews!!!! only Jews are allowed to go to Israel and obtain citizenship, oh wait change that since 1970 they fudged the rules, it use to be the person had to have a Jewish mother now its the child of a Jew, and the spouse of a Jew and the grandchildren of a Jew,


the Zionist racist creators of Eretz Israel know the numbers are against them and they will just about do anything short of using mass genocide on Palestinians, as for Marc bringing up Syria being bad where unlike Israel no one group has special status over another all people are treated like crap, what other revelations are you going to bring us water being wet and smoking is bad for you next :)
 

basketcase

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scouser1 said:
..., as for Marc bringing up Syria being bad where unlike Israel no one group has special status over another all people are treated like crap, what other revelations are you going to bring us water being wet and smoking is bad for you next :)
Some disagree with you.
http://memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1473
Following are excerpts from an address by Mustafa Ghader, the Mufti of Hasbaya and Marjeyoun in Lebanon, which aired on Al-Manar TV on June 5, 2007.

Mustafa Ghader: With regard to the so-called "Fath Al-Islam," we call it "the gang of terrorism." This gang must be eradicated from our land, because it was sent by the so-called brother [Syria] – but it is no brother, and even Israel is more merciful than it. I say this without reservation, because I'm familiar with Israel, and it never did what Syria has done in this country.
 

Anderson

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But Scouser,

Arabs do live in Israel, do vote in Israel, do sit in the Knesset in Israel ( although I despise the weak Israeli leaders to have allowed this) and Israelis and Arabs for the most part do get along very well in Israel.

The problem in Israel is the 5th column.

You and I both know that we would both prefer to walk down any St. in Tel Aviv or Haifa on any night than walk down any street in Jericho any day.

OW, I do not think just because TQM states a different view than you that he is an idiot . I disagree with most that he states but he is no idiot.I assure you of that.
 

scouser1

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You will never catch me walking down the street in an Israeli city as long as it continues to practice international occupation and be the main source of the suffering of millions of Palestinians

so we finally discover the true essence of marc, ya think those Arabs in Israel shouldnt be allowed to live there or sit in the Knesset hmm? if thats the case this discussion is over, even Fatah states that Jews would be allowed to live in a future Palestinian state, but if you want to go down the Baruch Goldstein, Meir Kahane, Lieberman route, my debate with you is so over as the kids say
 

Anderson

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It is liberation, not occupation-how many times must I state this !

Of course the Arabs should be able to live there- they are great citizens, seriously.They are good members of the community.The 5th column are the palestinains who stand on roof tops cheering while their next door neigbor dies via a missle attack !

The Arabs in the Knesset is a tough one. If Kahane and his party are allowed in -so should they. No Kahanes' party , no Arab party.
You cannot have your cake and eat it to.

There is a problem though during a war if the Knesset meets and the Arab members call Syria or Iraq to warn them.

Fatah talks to the west in English and the Arabs in Arabic so don't feed me that propaganda.

When you state one single thing about how Palestinains are treated in Jorden , or Lebanon or Syria then lets talk, until then , I do agree with you leaving this discussion .Its a waste for both of us .

May God bless Kahane too,.
 

scouser1

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marc said:
It is liberation, not occupation-how many times must I state this !

Of course the Arabs should be able to live there- they are great citizens, seriously.They are good members of the community.The 5th column are the palestinains who stand on roof tops cheering while their next door neigbor dies via a missle attack !

The Arabs in the Knesset is a tough one. If Kahane and his party are allowed in -so should they. No Kahanes' party , no Arab party.
You cannot have your cake and eat it to.

There is a problem though during a war if the Knesset meets and the Arab members call Syria or Iraq to warn them.


Fatah talks to the west in English and the Arabs in Arabic so don't feed me that propaganda.

When you state one single thing about how Palestinains are treated in Jorden , or Lebanon or Syria then lets talk, until then , I do agree with you leaving this discussion .Its a waste for both of us .

May God bless Kahane too,.
so let me understand your bigoted logic, if one group of people who call another group of people cockroaches (as Kahane did call the Palestinians) cant be allowed into parliament because they are extremist, then another law abiding group who arent the majority shouldnt be allowed either hmmm? please tell us if you think the Heritage Front, Jewish and Muslim extremists should be allowed into Parliament Hill also?

Palestinians in Jordan and Syria are treated like everyone else in the country no better or worse, Lebanon has sectarian issues to settle to deal with, besides those Palestinians have homes to go to that they were ethnically cleansed from, why should they become Lebanese citizens.

and your liberation not occupation attempt at humour so not funny, you think they are liberated then take a stroll through Gaza, the world's biggest prison or East Jerusalem where the Arab part on purpose gets lower funding from the state than its Jewish, whats hilarious is anyone claiming a state favouring one group over others is a democracy.

whats this God bless Kahane crap thought you were an atheist??? are you gonna bless Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot also
 

TQM

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o.w.

Consider it that I know nothing.

1. Do you have any evidence that the U.S. funneled money and weapons to Algeria in 1991 or 1992 to help with the coup? Do you? That's what you were claiming.

Just because one nation doesn't like the government elected by another nation doesn't mean that they therefore tried to stop democracy.

2. Egypt - surely the recent elections (which were still a far cry from democracy) are a result of U.S. pushing for democracy and not in spite of U.S. policy.

3. Elections in Kuwait.

4. Elections in Iraq.

5. Strong words against the totalitarian dictator in Syria.

Seems to me your picture ain't reality based. But again, I know nothing.
 

DATYdude

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marc, that god bless Kahane thing is pretty off -the-map as faras I'm concerned, even more extreme than the one-sided blathering that scouser has lowered himself to.

scouser1, when will you care to inform yourself about how the other side might REASONABLY think, whatever injustices that might lead them to. To say that you wouldn't ever be interested in gaining that understanding is very limiting. Don't then go and criticize other people's self-imposed ignorance.

Anyway, I know what you think it's just getting boring.

marc, this thread is pointless, there's no point in comparing the situation in Arab dictatorships with Israel, and few Israelis would bother comparing.

Being an Arab sucks in the Palestinian territories (as opposed to in Israel, where is sucks but not quite as much) but it also sucks in Arab states unless you're rich.

How about this for comparison:

If you were an average person in Sub-Saharan Africa, where would you rather live, in Africa where you are subject to a dictatorship or in the US where you would suffer prejudice because you're black and a foreigner?

Now if you're a Palestinian, would you rather live in Hebron (the territories), in Saudi Arabia, or in Peki'in (in Israel)? All options suck, but where would you be most likely to join a political party, vote regularly, protest, get a job, and be free from physical harm?
 

Anderson

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Daty, respectfully I disagree with ''Arabs in Israel '' sucks asits not true. I spent 4 years living in Tel Aviv and had many converstions with Arab Israels as our kids went to the same school, we lived in the same community and had businesses on the same street.This of course proves nothing , but any Arab Israel will agree with this.

Israel is not perfect for sure.

Kahane is usually referred to in this way but if one reads a book by him and I would gladly recommend one you will find that yes, he some some wacko thoughts,but most of what he stated was very accurate and was not racist at all.

Kahane did state some ideas that were very bad, but most of his issues hold true today.



Kahane was no Hitler- who did Kahane kill ?

God bless is because he believed in God, I don't.

Gaza is a prison due to Arafat, not Israel.
 

TQM

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o.w.

So we can conclude:

a) you were making things up. You are just guessing about involvement in Algeria (and guessing badly, eh? Didn't think I'd call you on it?)

b) you prefer to argue against a straw man. I'm well aware of the limitations in the movements toward democracy - but going from elections where only 1 party was allowed to run candidates to elections where many parties are allowed to run candidates, and allowing disagreement amongst those parties, is a major step forward, in terms of the march toward democracy. I wasn't claiming democracy in these nations was perfect. Democracy in the U.S. isn't perfect. But your blanket statements that the U.S. is against democracy in the Middle East are just simply false.

You can go on and play with others now. I got what I wanted from you and the game is over.
 

basketcase

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Can we vote to give scouser and marc their own forum so the zealots on each side can yell and scream without having to go beyond propoganda.

Seriously, Fatah wants Jews to stay? Last I heard, people get killed because they might have sold Jews "Palestinian" land.
 
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