CAW defiant in face of Chrysler's demands

[a 1 player]

Nice to hear the opinion from an insider. BUT, expecting a full size pick up to be efficient and be able to work with a 4 or 6 cylinder engine is a not realistic. The 8 cylinder is the most efficient, because when you load it up, it barely breaks a sweat, you put a 4 or 6 cylinder in there, and it WILL cost you a fortune in fuel.

You are correct. The problem being is that most of what is being produced is not considered a 'work truck', rather a toy. There will always be a need for trucks with large engines, I will not deny that for one second. 70%+ of the trucks that are being built though are considered 'mid level' or 'premium'. A work truck does not have a wood grain dashboard, a Bose sound system, power windows and mirrors, nice rims, chrome accessories, satellite radio, etc. A toy does. I would bet that 90% of the trucks being built will never haul anything larher than a sofa bed in the box, and never see anything even remotely off road, unless you consider putting your jet ski in the lake off road.

A work truck has the rubber floor mats, crank windows, upgraded suspension and an upgraded motor. GM, Ford and Chrysler are marketing their trucks as toys by the options available. The advertisements might show the odd construction worker getting in one, but they are far outnumbered by the ads showing someone driving through a wilderness on a holiday.

 

[JohnLarue]

The point you miss is that company profits and losses are management's responsibility.
.

Absolutely, positively 100% wrong
That is 1950 & 60s thinking & what seperate sucessful labor / mangement partnerships from the one doomed for failure (like the auto industry)
They are both stakeholders & the sooner the unions accept this the better for all

 

[JEFF247]

I wish they would have just let them go bankrupt. It would have made good economic sense but, as stated before, bad politics for politicians who care only about being re-elected.

 

[JohnLarue]

And you veered right back off the rails in your number four point. IT's the carmakers asking for government money, and they'll get every penny of it. The CAW will get no cheques from Ottawa, for all that they loyally showed up to support their begging employers.

.

Again wrong
The carmakers would much rather ask the unions for wage concessions than go begging for govt help (Ford & Chrysler have explicitly stated they can not live with the CAW GM deal) .

The unions know the govt bailout is a possible alternative & they refused a concession knowing the carmakers will have to go to the government
If the powers in Washington & Ottawa have any ball they will say no & the unions will have to take some responsibility or lose their livelihood.
It is despicable way to extort first the car companies & now the taxpayer

 

[WoodPeckr]

It is despicable way to extort first the car companies & now the taxpayer

Yet MANAGEMENT had no problem doing the begging!
Well you know, the despicable way management works, no!....

 

[JohnLarue]

Your point number two says it all and speaks for most of the spittle slingers. "They're way overpaid!" Well that's between them and the guys who agreed to pay them. For anyone else just looking on, what that comes from is envy.

Wrong a third time
It is now between them the guys who agreed to pay them and the taxpayer (every last one of them)
Its not envy when taxpayer has to pay it.
Its outrage
Most taxpayer do not make anywhere near what the CAW / UAW memers do
This is would be an unjust and very poor waste of public money.
Better it go to the very poor or go to support prosperous industries that will create jobs

 

[JohnLarue]

Yet MANAGEMENT had no problem doing the begging!
Well you know, the despicable way management works, no!....

Yes you are right again.
I guess they should have choose the last remaining alternative which is to shut down the operations

 

[JohnLarue]

Here's a deal I offer you: We agree no tax money to the car companies; they've had enough breaks over the years, it's up to them and their stakeholders—unions, suppliers, dealers, the who pack of them—to make it work or go under. Unlike banks, that we all need everyday and are stuck with supporting, we do not need a new car made every 30 minutes. And we'll each ignore the other's pigheaded stupidity in not seeing Who Destroyed theBig Three. Deal?
.

This is what I have been saying all along
I had hoped that a great many jobs (union & supplier company's) could be saved.
But if the stakeholders can not get it together, I certainly do not want my tax dollars supporting any of them.

I sure as shit will not be please to support unskilled $55 to 70 / hr union members who feel they have a contract & do not care if its me the taxpayer who has to Honor it

 

[Barca]

This is what I have been saying all along
I had hoped that a great many jobs (union & supplier company's) could be saved.
But if the stakeholders can not get it together, I certainly do not want my tax dollars supporting any of them.

I sure as shit will not be please to support unskilled $55 to 70 / hr union members who feel they have a contract & do not care if its me the taxpayer who has to Honor it

Quote for fucking truth!

 

[KBear]

Quote for fucking truth!

YES!

I think 1 of the 3 companies will have to go bankrupt, with union members, pensioners, and management losing everything, before anything really changes. The government is between a rock and a hard place in dealing with these pensions and wages. Will be interesting to see how things work out.

I would bet though that the government will bail them out and prop up the pension funds.

 

[WoodPeckr]

Yes you are right again.
I guess they should have choose the last remaining alternative which is to shut down the operations

A much better alternative would be FIRE the lousy managers and replace them with good ones who know how to work with their workers and unions.......but then your goal of busting the unions wouldn't happen so you want no part of that solution....

 

[Barca]

LOL! So...what...replace the current managers with the union leaders?

I love pro-union guys who fail to see the fact that the biggest failing of these "managers" is that they gave in to the Unions to begin with.

So "new" managers would need to start by cutting all money-costing aspects of the business, worker compensation being first on the list.

Or what exactly is it that "new managers" would do that would save the day?

 

[spankingman]

Caw

From what I have read and heard CAW workers earn top rate 0f 34.00 per hour PAY WISE the 70.00 per hour includes benefit package rolled in.

We ALL make more than our hourly wage if you include your benefit package IF you have one.

 

[WoodPeckr]

We ALL make more than our hourly wage if you include your benefit package IF you have one.

True!
It's just a 'divide & conquer' tactic management always uses to pit one group against another. Keep them fighting amongst themselves so management can pick your pockets as they divide you!...

 

[WoodPeckr]

Or what exactly is it that "new managers" would do that would save the day?

Probably cut down on the amount of stupid 'boneheaded' business decisions and waste caused by the present crop of morons running things now!

Labor accounts for 10% of vehicle cost.
The other 90% results from far too much waste and stupid decisions made by idiot managers like that ex 'Home Depot' clown CEO Robert Nardelli who was running Chrysler....

 

[a 1 player]

Or what exactly is it that "new managers" would do that would save the day?

I'll tell you what I would do...

Cut every model that does not sell and make a profit
Cut benefits to industry standard
Cut wages to industry standard
Work on losing the 'bully' management attitude
Make the disciplines stick and get rid of the dead weight
Stop the nepotism in the hiring practises
Change (most of) the product line to compact vehicles
Invest heavily in alternate fuels

If I could not get concessions for these, I'd shut the doors and let more competent companies build the cars, foreign or not.

 

[JohnLarue]

A much better alternative would be FIRE the lousy managers and replace them with good ones who know how to work with their workers and unions.......but then your goal of busting the unions wouldn't happen so you want no part of that solution....

How many times do I have to say this.
If replacing the management team is the answer make it happen & do it before taking a dime of taxpayer $

However I believe that any new management team will look at the cost structure turn to the unions & say we need a concession
The union will say "fuck you, go get $ from the govt"

If the unions can take this mess over, run it profitable and not expect government money then you have my vote.

I will bet big that the unions would soon come to the realization they need to lower the costs & have to ask the membership for a wage concession.

This is not about busting a union, in my view it more about saving jobs at the supplier plants & saving job UAW / CAW jobs @ a sustainable wage

 

[Barca]

I'll tell you what I would do...

Cut every model that does not sell and make a profit
Cut benefits to industry standard
Cut wages to industry standard
Work on losing the 'bully' management attitude
Make the disciplines stick and get rid of the dead weight
Stop the nepotism in the hiring practises
Change (most of) the product line to compact vehicles
Invest heavily in alternate fuels

If I could not get concessions for these, I'd shut the doors and let more competent companies build the cars, foreign or not.

This ALL makes sense.

So the question is, why didn't it happen? Management? Unions? Government? Who is at fault?

From my point of view, this crisis is the opportunity to right past wrong decisions. So far, I haven't seen any part of GM do that, from management right on down to the union leadership.

 

[WoodPeckr]

From my point of view, this crisis is the opportunity to right past wrong decisions. So far, I haven't seen any part of GM do that, from management right on down to the union leadership.

Right!

We need some REAL PROGRESS like the Banksters, who GOT 100s of BILLIONS more of my hard earned Tax Dollars, are showing!....

AIG to cut future bonus payments

 

[Barca]

Right!

We need some REAL PROGRESS like the Banksters, who GOT 100s of BILLIONS more of my hard earned Tax Dollars, are showing!....

AIG to cut future bonus payments

I assume you are American then? Because no Canadian bank has gotten any money from the government.

Still...you didn't answer the previous question. If you get rid of current management...who would you replace them with?

Funny that you are ok with removing management but not ok with removing (or reducing pay) for the worker? Like only one side is to blame here.

As for the US financials that got bailouts...that's another question you didn't answer. What do you think would happen to the the American economy (car companies included) if the banks didn't get the bailout? I am no fan of the bonuses they pay themelves, it's ridiculous. But that is the government's fault for not putting conditions on the money. That was stupid.