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Charlie Kirk Shot in the Neck in Utah (Update: Shooter Alt-right links)

mandrill

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No one was afraid of debating Kirk, it was just largely a waste of time. A few people were able to shut him up long enough to get their points in and those are fun to watch. But Kirk really wasn’t a debater; he was a gaslighter. Let’s walk through a typical Charlie Kirk debate.

1. Charlie would often share the Gospel. Now I’m not going to criticize that because Paul said we should celebrate when the Gospel is preached regardless of motive. And I won’t say Charlie didn’t have good intentions in sharing the Gospel. But it seems Charlie would leverage that for his own purposes. But we’ll get to that later.

2. Charlie invites someone to debate him. This typically begins with someone stating some objective fact about how Charlie’s political ideas were wrong or hypocritical.

3. Charlie interrupts the question to try to remove the important facts so he can rephrase the question under his own terms. This is a form of the strawman fallacy. Instead of addressing the valid question, Charlie changes the question to one he can give an answer to that no one can argue with, then claims victory over the original argument that he never addressed.

4. Charlie inserts his far right talking points which are typically laced with racism and misogyny. “We only have this problem because of gangs (read “blacks and Hispanics”), etc.

5. When Charlie is called out for his hate filled rhetoric he goes back and says he can’t hate the people he has been tearing down with racism, sexism, and a host of other -isms because he just shared the Gospel with them. This is more gaslighting.

That’s a simplification but it’s a valid paradigm of Charlie’s “debates” from what I have seen.

Now back to the question. Why go and debate someone when he is going to try to gaslight you into thinking he’s answering your question when he isn’t, subject yourself to hateful rhetoric, then you get to hear a crowd of sheep applaud because he says that despite gaslighting you, minimizing you, and marginalizing you that he actually loves you?

 
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mandrill

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Because Charlie Kirk wasn’t interested in an exchange of ideas or learning other perspectives.

His paycheck depended on him declaring himself “proven right” no matter what by using deflection, straw man arguments, gish-galloping, talking points and other techniques used to try to bat aside any arguments or facts he didn’t like.

He was just a cookie cutter right wing asshole.

I wrote this article a while back and it fits every single right wing asshole out there.

"Why I don't communicate with or debate Trump supporters"

TLDR: Trump supporters will never, never accept they are wrong about anything, and more importantly, are frantic to insist YOU are the one who is wrong.

They aren't interested in exchanging ideas and will never allow themselves to be convinced of any contrary views. They want a rigged shell game where you cannot possibly win and they will declare themselves the winner no matter what.

There is no debate with people who simply refuse to accept any uncomfortable facts or truths they don't want to deal with.

There is no debate with people who demand evidence then sneer and nitpick and brush away whatever they are given.

There is no debate with people who present no evidence of value but when asked to do so sneer “do your homework!” or provide links to fictional right wing nonsense.

There is no debate with people who consider their opinions facts and your facts opinions.

There is no debate with people who have absolutely no legal knowledge nor experience who feel they "get to decide" that all the court cases and convictions of Donald Trump are fake or don't count or weren't legal or are just "meanies picking on him" as they decide they know more than the courts, judges and juries who looked at the evidence and said otherwise.

There is no debate with people who cry and whine you're "picking on them" and "they're being bullied" when you present them with "mean facts" they don't like and won't listen to.

There is no debate with people who will deliberately lie and lie and lie.

There is no debate with people who will ignore anything they don't like or find inconvenient.

There is no debate with people who will never admit to being wrong or making a mistake, period.

There is no debate with people who will not even read or listen to anything you say but just wait for their turn to retort that you are delusional and wrong, no matter what.

There is no debate with people who are utterly brainwashed by Fox News then sneer you need to turn off CNN or MSNBC.

There is no debate with people who feel they can decide who is lying, who is guilty, and who has committed outrageously disgusting acts, and spoiler alert: it's never their side.

There is no debate with people who say you hate America for standing up for civil rights, equality, democracy, fairness, fair treatment and integrity, as they consistently demonstrate they don't care about any of that, or any American ideals whatsoever.

There is no debate with people who deflect absolutely everything with whataboutism such that nothing is ever, ever, ever their fault, or at least they cry and whine their side can commit crimes too because "DEMMACWATS STARTED IT FIRST!"

There is no debate with people who whine and cry about the "Biden Crime Family" which produced exactly zero indictments against Joe Biden, as they querulously insist the 34 felony convictions of Donald Trump "don't count" or "aren't really real."

There is no debate with people whose sole platform consists of crying, lies and name-calling.

There is no debate with people who believe only they are entitled to rights, privileges or respect, or to be considered Americans.

There is no debate with people who are complete and utter hypocrites, always whining about things they accuse the other side of while ignoring or excusing whatever their side has actually done.

There is no debate with people who genuinely believe their side is exempt from any and all rules, laws, or consequences but want to lock up their enemies for made up fictional garbage.

There is no debate with people who now literally will REFUSE to accept any election results they don't like and will just keep crying and lying about "election fraud," SHRIEKING "NUH UH! NUH UH! YOU CHEATED! YOU CHEATED! NO FAIR! RIGGGGGEEEEDDDD!"

And as of January 2025, DO NOTE: Democrats accepted the results of the 2024 election with dignity and grace, didn't lie, cry, whine or storm the Capitol. Trump supporters are STILL whining Trump really won in 2020 since they're crybabies perpetually outraged and can't get over anything.

As of April 2025, they're now ranting and raving about Tesla vandalism to try to totally whitewash what they did - and what they supported, and what they were pardoned for - on J6, screaming it's the other side which is violent, when they killed people during their collective tantrum on 1/6/21.

There is no debate with people who think a treasonous lying cheating infantile criminal rapist convicted felon of a failed husband, failed father, failed President and failed human being is wonderful no matter what and will sneer you have "TDS" if you disagree.

There is no debate with people who shrieked themselves hoarse from 2021 to 2025 that high gas and grocery prices were all Joe Biden's fault, and now in 2025 insist Trump is totally not to blame for the high grocery prices he promised to lower "on Day One."

Such foul people are worthy of nothing more than scorn, contempt, and ridicule. That's all they deserve.

 
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Abjectpatient

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If you're at the Airport, pick up Time magazine, they have a rational article on this. Yes, I'm an old man and I often get my information from paper still; jokes on you I'm not even 40. Internet is full of shit, like this thread.

Or


Someone is clearly pedalling information in this thread that is only going to contribute to the problem.

And before you fault Time, they also publish Enough after mass shooting in the past, regardless of notice and intention.
 

squeezer

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Jan 8, 2010
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Buddy is trying really hard to justify shooting someone in the neck via lots of words.
I don't believe anyone is defending the killing of Kirk, nor has anyone come to the aid of the shooter, be it left or right. The articles being written to counter the sane washing of Kirk. He wasn't the man the Repugs are trying to portray but this doesn't mean he deserved to be killed at 31 years old. I would have preferred to see him alive and turn on Trump, yeah, I know, wishful thinking. LOL

If anything, this act has hurt the Dems in the upcoming midterms when Kirk's early demise will surely be brought up over and over to gather the MAGA masses to vote.
 
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Abjectpatient

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I don't believe anyone is defending the killing of Kirk, nor has anyone come to the aid of the shooter, be it left or right. The articles being written to counter the sane washing of Kirk. He wasn't the man the Repugs are trying to portray but this doesn't mean he deserved to be killed at 31 years old. I would have preferred to see him alive and turn on Trump, yeah, I know, wishful thinking. LOL

If anything, this act has hurt the Dems in the upcoming midterms when Kirk's early demise will surely be brought up over and over to gather the MAGA masses to vote.
The point is, I'm not engaging in anyone spending paragraphs to take any side for political gain. Someone got shot in the neck for his political beliefs.

Time encapsulated this properly. Any attempt to wash this will just further contribute to the determination of society, and increase in extremism on both sides in America, and the West.

You're not supposed to get shot for having an opinion, even if it's garbage.
 
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squeezer

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The point is, I'm not engaging in anyone spending paragraphs to take any side for political gain. Someone got shot in the neck for his political beliefs.

Time encapsulated this properly.
Yes, and nobody is claiming he deserved to be shot and killed; that is the point. You will, however, find some wackos on social media celebrating. You will find wackos on both sides doing crazy things, but find me one Democrat Senator or congressman who celebrated his death? Don't bother looking, you won't. I can go a step further, find one Terbie who actually said, "good, he deserved to get shot", don't bother, you won't. You will just find folks saying, "Hey, this guy wasn't an angel," and showing why.
 
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Abjectpatient

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Yes, and nobody is claiming he deserved to be shot and killed; that is the point. You will, however, find some wackos on social media celebrating. You will find wackos on both sides doing crazy things, but find me one Democrat Senator or congressman who celebrated his death? Don't bother looking, you won't. I can go a step further, find one Terbie who actually said, "good, he deserved to get shot", don't bother, you won't. You will just find folks saying, "Hey, this guy wasn't an angel," and showing why.
Still shifting my point. Dude got shot in the neck, spending your time there after to prove him right or wrong and why or why not it happened isn't helping. You're debating a corpse, who died for having an opinion, now.

It doesn't have to explicit, but you know the intentions of the copy paste essay I am referencing on here.

The title itself is hilarious, such a quick attempt to score political points. It's okay, everything is polarized, some right wing psycho will shoot someone soon enough too, and you can all have your hay day of conspiracy and cancelling, too.

We are walking into civil war and dictatorship. At least the internet was good for hooker Intel, and bad for much of everything else.
 
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Shaquille Oatmeal

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You're debating a corpse, who died for having an opinion, now.
No we aren't debating a corpse.
We are debating and challenging the Trump administration and the MAGA movement's attempts to sane wash, lionize and canonize Kirk.
Kirk's death doesn't alter his past.
And bringing up his past honestly to challenge the Republicans isn't justifying or even reasoning his murder.
 

Abjectpatient

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No we aren't debating a corpse.
We are debating and challenging the Trump administration and the MAGA movement's attempts to sane wash, lionize and canonize Kirk.
Kirk's death doesn't alter his past.
And bringing up his past honestly to challenge the Republicans isn't justifying or even reasoning his murder.
Lmao

You're all pretending I'm not responding to someone literally doing that. You even liked the lazy, copy paste, post that was just all about how CK was wrong.

Debating a corpse.

Don't worry someone will shoot Hansan Piker or similar Zoomer/Millenial unknown in due time, and we can all devolve into an irrational society together.
 
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Abjectpatient

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So you think it would be wrong to say ill of someone like Saddam Hussein because he's a corpse?
Sitting around in a thread and writing a booked accusing the other side for the people he harmed, when the evidence otherwise points, and then moving goal posts around to keep it up, would be the same.

It's like writing a book to actually blame the right for Stalin. Just own it already, it's not like both sides are full of extremism anyway. We are all fucked, this isn't helping.
 

Frankfooter

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Sitting around in a thread and writing a booked accusing the other side for the people he harmed, when the evidence otherwise points, and then moving goal posts around to keep it up, would be the same.

It's like writing a book to actually blame the right for Stalin. Just own it already, it's not like both sides are full of extremism anyway. We are all fucked, this isn't helping.
Neither is declaring that Kirk was a saint and should be celebrated by the entire world.
 
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Shaquille Oatmeal

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Lmao

You're all pretending I'm not responding to someone literally doing that. You even liked the lazy, copy paste, post that was just all about how CK was wrong.

Debating a corpse.

Don't worry someone will shoot Hansan Piker or similar Zoomer/Millenial unknown in due time, and we can all devolve into an irrational society together.
This is like saying any criticism of Hitler and the holocaust is "debating a corpse".
No.
Its debating the sane washing of Kirk as if what he espoused wasn't vile and harmful.
But if you want to characterize it as "debating a corpse", sure go ahead.
Then I believe we do need to debate the corpse because we cannot let such ideologies go unchallenged.
We need to keep up the pressure on the right.
 

Abjectpatient

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Like I said, someone will kill Hansan or someone similar in due time and we can just keep the cycle up until we are killing each other.

Gg.
This is like saying any criticism of Hitler and the holocaust is "debating a corpse".
No.
Its debating the sane washing of Kirk as if what he espoused wasn't vile and harmful.
But if you want to characterize it as "debating a corpse", sure go ahead.
Then I believe we do need to debate the corpse because we cannot let such ideologies go unchallenged.
We need to keep up the pressure on the right.
No, it's framing if on someone it doesn't belong to is the problem here. Lmao then you're debating a corpse and desperately trying to pin it on the other side.

Here I'll do you a favour, people who point to 'Nationalist Socialist' to finger Hitler as some commie, are also idiots. He was right wing extreme.

See how I can switch. Just own it, this was an act of a left wing extremist. All extremists suck. The end, welcome to moderate politics, something that's gone these days.
 

Frankfooter

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See how I can switch. Just own it, this was an act of a left wing extremist. All extremists suck. The end, welcome to moderate politics, something that's gone these days.
Right now it looks like it was either an attack by a more extreme right winger, a groyper, or it was some weird covert assassination by someone like Netanyahu.
The left had nothing to do with it.

Left wingers could care less about Kirk, he was just yet another billionaire funded podcaster stirring up shit.
 
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