Cuba may fall

[JohnLarue]

Even a government change won't drastically change the economics of the island.

wrong

communism/ socialism simply does not work and has miserably failed yet again
a completely different form of government / economy is required.
i.e. A democracy with a free market based economy, where merit/ hard work / risk taking are rewarded and incompetence and corruption can be voted out of power.
the people of Cuba have suffered far too long under the failed communist / socialist experiment

 

[whyagain]

Drastically change? Of course not. It def will take time. Change doesn't ever come drastically to any nation as that's unrealistic. They can stay Communist and accept capitalism similar to China, Haiti, etc. Allow their people to gain funds and some will have better places and more food. Will others be jealous and upset? Sure. It's a lot better than depriving the entire population. At least Trump is trying something than what Cubans have dealt with lately. Third world nations who've adapted to capitalism are doing far better than what they had before.

 

[Daniel74747474]

wrong

communism/ socialism simply does not work and has miserably failed yet again
a completely different form of government / economy is required.
i.e. A democracy with a free market based economy, where merit/ hard work / risk taking are rewarded and incompetence and corruption can be voted out of power.
the people of Cuba have suffered far too long under the failed communist / socialist experiment

I think I will point to Puerto Rico as an example of how that is just not true.

 

[WyattEarp]

Cuba was once a Mafia playground, they wont submit to the Americans again easily. Ironic, today is the day that Fidel Castro overthrew the Mafia State and took power.

So anyone over 75 will have a lasting memory of this.

 

[whyagain]

You can mention Puerto Rico and others who aren't doing well along with others who are. At this point it's better to try something like what Trump is to see if some change can happen and for the better. Does it come at a cost? Yes. Many nations have faced similar things and it can work out for the better, but not always the case. I'd rather see the Cubans I know down there starting up a business and having a fridge full of food than current state past few years. Last time I was down there I brought a bunch of items from the dollar store up here including toothpaste and they cried tears of joy. They invited me over for a meal and gave what they could. Amazing people.

Folks in third world countries who can afford tv and watch shows in developed nation question why those folks over at that country have Lambos, better clothes, etc. because their hardworking business paid off. And in those same nations you have lower classes who get jealous and say well so-and-so shouldn't buy that Lambo they should donate money to us instead. Just using the Lambo as an explain costs money to make so you're helping out workers get paid and those same workers who built that Lambo can use those funds to feed themself and create a business idea too. That's capitalism, not perfect but a better choice typically.

 

[WyattEarp]

I think I will point to Puerto Rico as an example of how that is just not true.

I doubt you have been to Puerto Rico and around the island away from tourist enclaves. It's a fairly nice place.
It's not as wealthy as the 50 states.
However, it's GDP per capita is relatively high for Latin American and Caribbean nations.
In fact, Puerto Rico is not that far behind on a per capita basis from Canada. U.S. govt. transfers assist those at the lower income levels.
The only thing that keeps it from doing better is a Spanish colonial institutional culture.

 

[WyattEarp]

You can mention Puerto Rico and others who aren't doing well along with others who are. At this point it's better to try something like what Trump is to see if some change can happen and for the better. Does it come at a cost? Yes. Many nations have faced similar things and it can work out for the better, but not always the case. I'd rather see the Cubans I know down there starting up a business and having a fridge full of food than current state past few years. Last time I was down there I brought a bunch of items from the dollar store up here including toothpaste and they cried tears of joy. They invited me over for a meal and gave what they could. Amazing people.

People are raising a difficult question that doesn't have black and white answers. Are the Cuban people better off continuing to suffer under the regime rather than intense short-term suffering to weaken the government's control over their economic lives?

The fact is everyone here is answering for the Cuban people. We don't know what they want. If all things were equal, I doubt they would want the Castro regime. It's an extremely coercive regime. I don't know if a peaceful transition of power is possible without a catalyst.

PS- The U.S. has made Cuba its business for long as anyone can remember. We have a lot of Cuban-Americans who want it that way. These Cuban-Americans do speak for many Cuban family members back on the island.

 

[Daniel74747474]

I doubt you have been to Puerto Rico and around the island away from tourist enclaves. It's a nice place.
It's not as wealthy as the 50 states.
However, it's GDP per capita is relatively high for Latin American and Caribbean nations.
In fact, Puerto Rico is not that far behind on a per capita basis from Canada.
The only thing that keeps it from doing better is a Spanish colonial institutional culture.

I have lots of family there and yes, i have been away from the tourist enclaves. You raise a fair point, though.

 

[WyattEarp]

I have lots of family there and yes, i have been away from the tourist enclaves. You raise a fair point, though.

To be fair, I do realize the life of American and foreign retirees living there is different from most Puerto Ricans.
The retirees and of course tourists do bring money to the island.
I'm an economic realist which makes me more conservative than some members.
Given their geography, I don't know how much any of the Caribbean islands can really diversify from a tourist/retiree economy.

 

[JohnLarue]

I think I will point to Puerto Rico as an example of how that is just not true.

point to Cuba and be assured it is true
point to the Soviet Union and be assured it is true
point to communist Red China and be assured it is true
point to Poland and be assured it is true
point to Cambodia and be assured it is true
point to Vietnam and be assured it is true
point to Hungary and be assured it is true
point to Romania and be assured it is true
point to East Germany and be assured it is true
point to Venezuela and be assured it is true

perhaps 200 + million people starved, worked to death or outright murdered by their own communist/ socialist governments in the 20th century
and this list of failed communist/ socialist states is not exhaustive

communism/ socialism just plain does not work and while idealistically utopian, it is evil, inhuman and barbaric in practice

 

[Butler1000]

People are raising a difficult question that doesn't have black and white answers. Are the Cuban people better off continuing to suffer under the regime rather than intense short-term suffering to weaken the government's control over their economic lives?

The fact is everyone here is answering for the Cuban people. We don't know what they want. If all things were equal, I doubt they would want the Castro regime. It's an extremely coercive regime. I don't know if a peaceful transition of power is possible without a catalyst.

PS- The U.S. has made Cuba its business for long as anyone can remember. We have a lot of Cuban-Americans who want it that way. These Cuban-Americans do speak for many Cuban family members back on the island.

And again......why is the USA the one to determine this as well? And please spare us the moral argument at this point. The USA has repeatedly proven itself to be an exploiterv and not a liberator.

 

[Butler1000]

point to Cuba and be assured it is true
point to the Soviet Union and be assured it is true
point to communist Red China and be assured it is true
point to Poland and be assured it is true
point to Cambodia and be assured it is true
point to Vietnam and be assured it is true
point to Hungary and be assured it is true
point to Romania and be assured it is true
point to East Germany and be assured it is true
point to Venezuela and be assured it is true

perhaps 200 + million people starved, worked to death or outright murdered by their own communist/ socialist governments in the 20th century
and this list of failed communist/ socialist states is not exhaustive

communism/ socialism just plain does not work and while idealistically utopian, it is evil, inhuman and barbaric in practice

View attachment 553463

View attachment 553464

And even one of those was due to internal forces and not outside interference by an exploiter

 

[WyattEarp]

And again......why is the USA the one to determine this as well? And please spare us the moral argument at this point. The USA has repeatedly proven itself to be an exploiterv and not a liberator.

1) We have millions of Cuban refugees with family in Cuba who have influence.
2) We are likely the only nation who can actually be a catalyst for change in Cuba.
3) I don't really see big economic upside for the U.S. with a friendlier Cuban regime.

I said there are no black and white answers. One could ask how do you know if the local Cuban population wants us to stay out of Cuban affairs.

Certitude can be arrogance.

PS- I'm reminded of a history lesson that doesn't perfectly fit this situation but begs some thought. The Thirteen American colonies were British in 1775. That is a fact. As much a fact that Canada was British. The French government lent significant military support to the American rebels to defeat British rule.

 

[WyattEarp]

And even one of those was due to internal forces and not outside interference by an exploiter

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

 

[whyagain]

Sometimes outside interference is needed in this case it's USA. If it were Canada or UK someone could say why is the UK trying to help them? Are they really trying to obtain land like they did decades ago? We have to wait and see the outcome as we do not know the future.

The French helping Americans from British rule is a good example.

 

[JohnLarue]

1) We have millions of Cuban refugees with family in Cuba who have influence.
2) We are likely the only nation who can actually be a catalyst for change.

I said their are no black and white answers. One could ask how do you know if the Cuban population wants us to stay out of Cuban affairs.

Certitude can be arrogance.

PS- I'm reminded of a history lesson that doesn't perfectly fit this situation but begs some thought. The Thirteen American colonies were British in 1775. That is a fact. As much a fact that Canada was British. The French government lent significant military support to the American rebels to defeat British rule.

Self determination is absolutely required
The Cuban people will reject any continuance of the communist nightmare that has impoverished them

Cuba needs capital and the US is a natural trade partner
That does not mean they have to invite the US mafia back in or have a Starbucks on every corner

 

[JohnLarue]

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

that makes 2 of you
3 if you count me.

 

[JohnLarue]

Sometimes outside interference is needed in this case it's USA. If it were Canada or UK someone could say why is the UK trying to help them? Are they really trying to obtain land like they did decades ago? We have to wait and see the outcome as we do not know the future.

The French helping Americans from British rule is a good example.

The French helped the Americans because France was at war with Britain and it served their interest to help
a few year before, the the French were paying the Huron for scalps from the Americans who identified as English then

 

[JohnLarue]

And even one of those was due to internal forces and not outside interference by an exploiter

the eastern bloc countries certainty did not choose to be commie
and they all punted that evil system just as soon as was possible

communism is an evil, inhuman and barbaric form of governance

 

[whyagain]

Western Germany experienced better quality of life compared to East.