Delta airlines plane crash lands at Pearson airport

SchlongConery

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Delta even admitted that the pilot was a 26 yr old woman, with very little experience!!
Whaddabout this DEI hire back in 1975?


Even back then, before your daddy was even in short pants - or little white robe-, there were bigots not believing blacks, women or minorities were capable of whatever. Including flying airplanes. Did you know there were many, many women test pilots and ferry pilots in WW2?
 

SchlongConery

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Oh man, Patty is awesome. I loved watching her perform her magic in her Extra 300S at the CNE. What a truly remarkable pilot.

I also agree with you regarding female commercial airline pilots. There's not a group of men (because a large percentage of instructors are male) giving a passing mark to female pilots, just because they're female. I've taken flying lessons and I've successfully taken off and landed a plane numerous times. Even at that level, you have to be very dedicated to what you're doing. It's a lot of work. I can only imagine what it takes to get to the level of flying commercial.

I never pursued my pilot's licence, because I came to the realization that this was something that required way more time than I had to spare. I also realized that it's something you need to do all the time to remain sharp. I was more than capable of getting my licence and I would be very good at flying. But the little voice inside my head told me, you don't want to be a part-time pilot, because you'll end up dead. It's not a once-in-a-while activity.

I truly appreciate your insight Schlong...

P.S. Knowing what I do now, I'm also leaning towards some sort of wind event that caught the pilot off guard. The lack of flare and the fact that the point of contact was so early on, on that extremely long runway, makes me think that's the case. Plus, there was nothing unusual about the rate of decent until the very last moment.

Or it had to do something with the tarmac. :ROFLMAO:

Here is Patty, at SEVENTY THREE YEARS OLD, last summer performing high G, low altitude aerobatics at Oshkosh!

Poor little bitch mitch would be crying for his mommy if he went up for a ride with this DEI hire. Another 26 year old DEI hire 36 years ago! Flying in Alaska.


 
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SchlongConery

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I never pursued my pilot's licence, because I came to the realization that this was something that required way more time than I had to spare. I also realized that it's something you need to do all the time to remain sharp. I was more than capable of getting my licence and I would be very good at flying. But the little voice inside my head told me, you don't want to be a part-time pilot, because you'll end up dead. It's not a once-in-a-while activity.
Well, you have the right aptitude, judgement wise, for a good pilot!

When anyone asks me "How much does it cost to get your license?", I tell them you have to have a minimum of $2k per month in purely discretionary cash... for as long as you want to fly. Because getting your licenseis just the start of a continuous learning, practice and proficiency journey. You have to fly at least 2 times a month to stay proficient and safe.
 
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GameBoy27

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Here is Patty, at SEVENTY THREE YEARS OLD, last summer performing high G, low altitude aerobatics at Oshkosh!

Poor little bitch mitch would be crying for his mommy if he went up for a ride with this DEI hire. Another 26 year old DEI hire 36 years ago! Flying in Alaska.


So fucking great. Most people have no idea how incredibly talented she is. To me, she's right up there with the best F1 drivers.

P.S. I went to Oshkosh, many moons ago. Got to listen listen to Chuck Yeager give a talk. One of the highlights of my life...
 
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GameBoy27

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Well, you have the right aptitude, judgement wise, for a good pilot!

When anyone asks me "How much does it cost to get your license?", I tell them you have to have a minimum of $2k per month in purely discretionary cash... for as long as you want to fly. Because getting your licenseis just the start of a continuous learning, practice and proficiency journey. You have to fly at least 2 times a month to stay proficient and safe.
Well, you have the right aptitude, judgement wise, for a good pilot!

When anyone asks me "How much does it cost to get your license?", I tell them you have to have a minimum of $2k per month in purely discretionary cash... for as long as you want to fly. Because getting your licenseis just the start of a continuous learning, practice and proficiency journey. You have to fly at least 2 times a month to stay proficient and safe.
Thank you. I'm sure I'd be an excellent pilot. I also have more than enough money to fly regularly, but as I said, seat-time is more important than anything else. To me, even 2 times a month is marginal.
 
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SchlongConery

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Thank you. I'm sure I'd be an excellent pilot. I also have more than enough money to fly regularly, but as I said, seat-time is more important than anything else. To me, even 2 times a month is marginal.

As the saying goes... better to be down here wishing you were up there, than being up there wishing you were down here! ;)
 
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SchlongConery

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Canada's Transportation Safety Board released a preliminary reoprt on this crash today.


Seems to me that some sort of low level windshear resulted from either the natural oscillation of the gusty winds at the higher end of the gust range being encountered and then dropping off, or possibly from some downwind turbulence in the wind shadow of the hangar complex at the north end of the field.

The female First Officer was indeed doing the flying and punched off the autoplit at 500' AGL and hand flew a nicely stabilized approach, right on the correct airspeed, descent rate and ground track.

At about 13 seconds before ground impact, the indicated airspeed increased by 10 knots without an accompanying increase in groundspeed. This is consistent with a quick wind gust, but not for long enough of the mass of the aircraft to slow down. Then the pilot flying reduced power in response.

The aircraft's rate of descent increased dramatically a few moments later as the aircraft presumably passed through the gust . But the right wing roll angle increased also. Likely in response to the change in wind intensity.

The aircraft hit hard enough to break the landing gear and wing off. The fireball was the spray of jet fuel from the ruptured right wing.


So it seems like, at this point with this information that the pilot flying encountered some dicey winds on short final and wasn't able to react quickly or appropriately on the flight controls, specifically the throttles. The aircraft slowed below its approach reference speed moments after she reduced throttles in response to the previous wind gust. As far as the interim report reveals, she didn't re-adjust engine power once she responded to the initial high gust. Then she got below the calculated vRef and dropped right through ground effect, slaming into the runwayy. In a way, you could say she 'got behind the airplane' for the last few seconds, although the engines don't spool up very fast and it could have been windshear thhat was really sharp.

She did have 600 hours on this type of aircraft and had flown into Toronto a few times. So while that is not a lot of hours on this aircraft type, it is significant enough to say she was experienced on the aircraft and its flying characteristics.

Absent other factors, and while this can happen to any pilot, tthere is no doubt that crosswind landings in gusty conditions are likely one of the things you get better at with time and experience. Man or woman. Flying jets with engines that are slower to spool up also makes jockeying the throttles more of an art. This takes experience in make and model in various wind and weight conditions. If it were me or most pilots, they'd keep a bit higher and faster given the winds and plenty of loooooonnnnnnnng runway ahead. No need to aim for the touchdown markings or a short landing unless you need to hold short of a runway or want to make a turnoff to shorten the trip to the gate.



The dramatic YouTube short below is an extreme example but it shows how the wind can lift and drop you without warning. Now imagine encountering one of those huge gusts at 40 or 50 feet when there is simply no room or time to make effective control inputs. Having said all that, a more experienced pilot may very well have pulled it off. Plenty of planes landed before her taht day, and many more at YYZ over the years without this type of accident.

 
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SchlongConery

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THIS is a great Captain.

At Air Canada, anyways, the training message is that you as a Captain get paid to say "No, not going".

It's the judgement to say no, despite express and implied pressures. In General Aviation, "get-there-itis" kills a lot of pilots.


 

wigglee

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Why do they never refer to what the pilots reported? They are still alive and must have some info to give?
 

SchlongConery

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Nothing white knighting about my casual analysis.

I just like to try to dispel rumours and conclusions by the general public. While most TERB members DO know everything about everything, I thought I'd offer some insight and my opinion.

In fact, I inferred that it seems while she flew a good approach, she seemed to have gotten behind the aircraft once she pulled back on the throttles in response to the wind gust at 153' AGL. She went from 64% N1 (indirect measurement of power/thrust) to 43% in response to the wind gust. I don't know the power settings on any Challenger/RJ series jets but 43% N1 seems to be just above flight idle in the descent.

While I am one of the types of airmen who is pretty outspoken and sometimes think I see an obvious or typical cause for an accident, I am often wrong. So while I love to discuss accidents at the time, I do so for purposes of educational discussion, not to blame. There is a lot we can learn just having a topic to discuss. The TSB and NTSB do excellent, thorough work, especially in airline incidents. Yes @Phil C. McNasty, I admit to being a pilot for 36 years and also flying with my dad since I was a baby. I was flying on instruments at age 5 because I couldn't see over the instrument panel! 👶:ROFLMAO: . I have some 35 aircraft types in my logbooks! I have also assisted in 12 investigations to varying degrees over the years as well as writing and editing aviation magazine articles and books.

In this flight, it is my considered opinion that it seems that she shouldn't have reduced the power that much, if at all, in response to the 10 knot headwind factored gust at 150' above the ground. But because she did, she should have been spring loaded to pour the kerosene to 'er a moment later WHEN that gust passed (or she flew through the windshear 'layer') in anticipation of that wind gust lulling off back to the base wind and the plane dropping out from under her.


In flying general aviation piston aircraft, the power is there, like now, almost instantly when you advance the throttles. But a jet or turboprop engine is slower to spool up and produce thrust. So if you were flying this in a mid-size cabin class 8 passengers piston twin like a Cessna 414, or small Cessna 172, jockeying the throttle and jerking the yoke and rudder pedals back and forth is like a dance because the plane is so responsive to control inputs. And a C414 only weighs around 6,000 lbs / C-172 about 2,200lbs when landing, making them both more agile but also more susceptible to getting knocked around due to the low wing loading etc. Fun fact.... the crosswind component that day were outside the demonstrated crosswind landing limitations of both of these sample Cessna's.

This female pilot had 1,000 hours in general aviation aircraft, much of it being an instructor. 600 hours in the RJ. She maybe got 300-350 landings in that time. This was likely a very unique set of conditions that she had not experienced before.

We have no data on engine / throttle controls and more but I wouldn't be surprised if it was simply a new pilot flying in conditions that she had not experienced before. Maybe she froze, maybe it all happened too fast... who knows.

I have only put a mark on an aircraft landing at (Tim Horton donuts owner) Ron Joyce's Fox Harb'r golf course runway many years ago. Was flying a single engine fixed gear aircraft with a high wing loading and a leaf spring-like, undampened landing gear. One of Ron's highly experienced pilots had crash landed just SEVEN FEET short of the runway threshold in a Bombardier Global Express 5000. Almost same wind conditions and airspeed fluctuations as the Delta flight.

Anyways, I kept it a bit high and also caught a bit of a gust just before crossing the threshold and I pulled the power back a bit. The gust died and the plane sank, so I added some power to arrest the descent. Reduced it again to continue the last 10' to the runway... then the 25 knot headwind dropped OFF! Plane sank immediately and I firewalled the throtlle and pulled back on the stick to arrest the dramatic descent. I almost got it but I hit hard enough for the leaf-spring main landing gear and tires to flatten out enough to scrape the bottoms of the wheel pants! Plane then ballooned up, full power, nose high and many make the mistake of continuing the landing. Instead, I lowered the nose, while still at full power and went around for another try. Greased her on that time!

Something similar happened to me flying floats. Was flying for the Ministry of Natural Resources in support of a wildfire operation. The helicopter was not available so I offered to droop two ground firefighters into a small lake that, without the strong headwind was not big enough to take off from. There was a steep hill on the approach and tall trees to the edge of the water. So I got slowed down, dropped the nose and pretty much parachuted/autorotated down the hill and across the trees. You have to time the round out with POWER to arrest the descent or you will pancake into the lake. Then you flare ! Had done it many times in this STOL bushplane which is known for that specific ability/technique (Maule M7-260) but this time the turbulence rolling up the trees and up the hill had created an invisible 'standing wave' with a bubble of NO wind close to the shoreline. Dropped like a streamlined brick. All the fucking throttle and full back elevator just barely stopped the plane from going splat in a bellyflop! Instead, it just slipped onto the water like it looked like I meant to do it! Stopped in a few hundred feet. The two other guys with me had not flown this type and were amazed that this type of landing was indeed possible in the legendary Maule! They said the approach was like a helicopter!

Anyways, invisible winds are to flying what big rogue waves are to sailors. It can be dangerous but is doable. Until the wind or wave surprises you faster than you or the airplane or vessel can respond.

Some people like these flying stories so I tell them. NOT to brag or anything, just to share good stories. I've enjoyed listening to the old greybeards Hangar Flying in the coffee shop all my life. Now I'm getting there... except no grey and no beard.
 

SchlongConery

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Why do they never refer to what the pilots reported? They are still alive and must have some info to give?
Couple of things.

First, there is no obligation to provide an immediate detailed report immediately after an accident.. In fact, the union tells you to keep your mouth shut until you speak to the lawyers.

Second, when they do speak to the investigators, the investigators take that eyewitness account into consideration and compare it to the FDR, CVR, ADS-B, videos, wind reports, other witness reports and the physical aircraft and accident scene. It is only part of the investigation.

And the investigators will almost never release the crew's statements until the final report is published. Especially if there is an indication that the crew may be at fault. They want to be very careful.

Remember, the investigators job is to investigate, analyze and report on their conclusions for the sole purpose of making safety recommendations. It is not to rapidly inform lookie-loo members of the public who have no clue of wtf they are talking about, and who will then go on to create a sensational story or conspiracy theory out of some cherry picked segment of what they said. Or to prejudge and politicize this as a DEI accident like some of the wannabe Waldo Pepper's here.

The contributing causes of this accident, like all airline accidents where the aircraft is recovered relatively intact with no deaths, will be solved. The TSB Investigators probably don't have access to the same quality of information that Mr. Rockhead and cute little mitch have fed to them through the Xitter. So give them time. Mitch, Granite... I can give you a number to call to offer your services. The TSB technical office is up on Wilmot near the Eat Beaver Creek AMP's so you might be able to get your parking validated!
 
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SchlongConery

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Stevie Wonder could see the kid pilot came in way too hot. Every other plane before her landed just fine. Good thing flying Airforce One isn't contracted out to dei Delta.


Stevie Wonder is smarter than that. The "kid pilot" actually came in too slow!

As for who is flying AF1. If Trump was allowed to pick the pilot, I'd bet she'd look like all his other bimbo staffers, and would lie to the Air Traffic Controllers too! Or he'd hire a celebrity. All makes for great TV! Which is what really matters after all....😜
 
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SchlongConery

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For those sufficiently interested, here is the TSB Report on Ron's Global Express (Almost the same aircraft as the CRJ) that crashed 6ft short of the runway. Very experienced Challenger pilots although relatively new on the longer Global Express 5000. The sight picture nd the further back the main landing gear are from the cockpit changes the eye to wheel height and can trick you into thinking you are higher than your rear wheels are.. Same with Fox Harb'r runway being relatively narrow. This gives the same illusion.

It's a great read and very similar to the recent Delta accident.


 
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wigglee

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Stevie Wonder is smarter than that. The "kid pilot" actually came in too slow!

As for who is flying AF1. If Trump was allowed to pick the pilot, I'd bet she'd look like all his other bimbo staffers, and would lie to the Air Traffic Controllers too! Or he'd hire a celebrity. All makes for great TV! Which is what really matters after all....😜
Trump would probably hire Leslie Neilson as his pilot, even though he's dead.
 

SchlongConery

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Trump would probably hire Leslie Neilson as his pilot, even though he's dead.
Surely, you cant be serious
And Trump would then hire (pilot) Peter Graves to be Medical Director!


Here is Trump's "Airplane" Cabinet:


Pilot: Dr. Leslie Nielson
First Officer/Radio Operator: RFK Jr. (Kareem Abdul Jabbar transferred to hold a lantern at the entrance to The White House-token DEI hire to satisfy "The Libtards"
Drug Addicted Air Traffic Controllers: Don Jr. and Alex Jones


feel free to join in the casting...
 
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