Do agency's keep copies of our numbers. C36 issue

[fuji]

That would put the girls in danger. Forcing them to testify against their clients is crazy.Cops or the judge will never have enough proof to force a girl to testify against her client.There must be a big reason for the judge to in force it and there is nothing like that in the new bill regarding prostitution laws

They will have lots of evidence to establish that the girl likely sold sex. Her testimony will turn likely into proof.

Yes it is a big effort for the crown which is why I said at the start they have to be motivated, but don't fool yourself into believing there is nothing they can do.

This is just ONE example of the tools the police will have if they WANT to aggressively enforce against someone.

People here are also grossly underestimating the ability of the crown to convict on circumstantial evidence. In real courts that works, unlike on TV.

 

[SexyFriendsTO]

They will have lots of evidence to establish that the girl likely sold sex. Her testimony week turn likely into proof.

If they will be holding a candle then yes they will have lots of evidence. Judge will never force a girl to testify unless there is a solid evidence like transaction of money for sex captured on camera

 

[fuji]

If they will be holding a candle then yes they will have lots of evidence. Judge will never force a girl to testify unless there is a solid evidence like transaction of money for sex captured on camera

You are wrong about what judges will allow.

 

[SexyFriendsTO]

Even if judge has plenty of evidence I don't think it will happen. I will contact a lawyer and get back to you. We have until December 6 i believe. There is still could be some changes made in the bill until december 6 so its probably wise to wait until it finally goes thru.

 

[wangbang]

She puts your name and number in an appointment book which she keeps. If she is arrested by the police for whatever they have that book and your number. If they wish they can contact you as part of an on going investigation to ask you questions. FYI The arrest does not have to be sex related for this to happen.

So they are going to call my GPS free 7-11 phone which was never registered via name or address or with a credit card. I get the message, toss the sim card and get a new one for cash without giving my name, address or credit card.

Easy-peezy.

 

[buttercup]

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms has this to say about the possible retroactive effect of a new law.
Section 11.
Any person charged with an offence has the right ...
(g) not to be found guilty on account of any act or omission unless, at the time of the act or omission, it constituted an offence under Canadian or international law or was criminal according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of nations;

In other words, they can't convict you for the new offence of paying for sexual services, in respect of something you did before Dec.6th.

OTOH: Suppose you've been accused, after Dec.6th, of an offence, and you seek to show that you had no intent, becasue you didn't know what you were getting into. In that case, LE might well obtain leave to show the court the records that you paid for sexual services twice a week for the five years prior to Dec.6th -- as a way of exposing your lie.


Under C-36, the lady commits no offence by receiving payment for sex. Therefore, you might think LE have no lever to make her act in a sting operation. Therefore, you might think you're ok if you only see the tried-and-true regularly-reviewed ladies from before Dec.6th.
But suppose the lady has committed some other offence -- income tax evasion, for example. Now, she might offer to do a sting in exchange for a break in regards to that offence.

 

[DB123]

Under C-36, the lady commits no offence by receiving payment for sex. Therefore, you might think LE have no lever to make her act in a sting operation. Therefore, you might think you're ok if you only see the tried-and-true regularly-reviewed ladies from before Dec.6th.
But suppose the lady has committed some other offence -- income tax evasion, for example. Now, she might offer to do a sting in exchange for a break in regards to that offence.

I remember that episode of The Wire...

 

[GPIDEAL]

The answer is that you have no idea what information agencies keep our for how long. Public claims about policy are impossible to verify and most didn't even bother stating a policy.

Protect yourself. Use a disposable phone number.

I've never used a disposable phone. I understand you can buy these from most cell phone shops (even independent shops). How do they work? Where can I learn more?

 

[DB123]

I've never used a disposable phone. I understand you can buy these from most cell phone shops (even independent shops). How do they work? Where can I learn more?

7-11. I don't bother but that seems to be the go to.

 

[GPIDEAL]

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms has this to say about the possible retroactive effect of a new law.
Section 11.
Any person charged with an offence has the right ...
(g) not to be found guilty on account of any act or omission unless, at the time of the act or omission, it constituted an offence under Canadian or international law or was criminal according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of nations;

In other words, they can't convict you for the new offence of paying for sexual services, in respect of something you did before Dec.6th.

OTOH: Suppose you've been accused, after Dec.6th, of an offence, and you seek to show that you had no intent, becasue you didn't know what you were getting into. In that case, LE might well obtain leave to show the court the records that you paid for sexual services twice a week for the five years prior to Dec.6th -- as a way of exposing your lie.


Under C-36, the lady commits no offence by receiving payment for sex. Therefore, you might think LE have no lever to make her act in a sting operation. Therefore, you might think you're ok if you only see the tried-and-true regularly-reviewed ladies from before Dec.6th.
But suppose the lady has committed some other offence -- income tax evasion, for example. Now, she might offer to do a sting in exchange for a break in regards to that offence.

Not exactly.

Section 286.2 applies to EVERYONE who receives a material benefit from the commission of an offence under S. 286.1(1) being obtaining sex for payment; that is, they commit an offence for receiving payment for sex.

Section 286.5 immunizes any person who received a material benefit from the provision of their own sexual services, against being prosecuted for that aforementioned offence.

There is no exception to being indicted for receiving payment for sex, only immunity against prosecution/conviction therefor. (Does the latter mean SPs won't be arrested, charged or indicted? I wish I knew, but the statute doesn't exactly say that).

 

[GPIDEAL]

7-11. I don't bother but that seems to be the go to.

OK and further to what Buttercup pointed out, having a phone # in a directory doesn't mean you committed an offence. It's the details of any communication that might get you into trouble. As stated in the Challenges thread, cell phone providers don't keep text logs, or call logs over 30 days.

 

[Toronto Passions]

except in cases where clients are blacklisted. Given the current changes in the law, we'll continue that policy.

Well said! TP does the exact same thing and we always will. We only keep blacklist info. We will also continue to share blacklist info with other agencies as we see fit.

 

[fuji]

OK and further to what Buttercup pointed out, having a phone # in a directory doesn't mean you committed an offence. It's the details of any communication that might get you into trouble. As stated in the Challenges thread, cell phone providers don't keep text logs, or call logs over 30 days.

Specifically, if the phone number enabled the police to identify who you are, then it makes possible an investigating based on whatever other information they have about you (emails, booking records, statements by the SP herself, eventually this thread on terb after they seize your computer, etc.).

If the phone number leads nowhere that investigation dead ends.

I agree they are not likely to go looking for someone who booked two months ago, but they might track down everyone who booked in the previous week.

They would have to be motivated to run a fairly large investigating but it would certainly be possible if they were motivated to do that.

 

[wangbang]

I've never used a disposable phone. I understand you can buy these from most cell phone shops (even independent shops). How do they work? Where can I learn more?

7-11.

1) Find a 7-11 near you.
2) Buy a cheap phone.
3) Buy a sim card. Runs on the Rogers network.
4) Buy a $25 airtime voucher. Good for a year and rolls over into the next year provided you add minutes before the year is up.
5) Go to the website and set up the phone and add the minutes. If you are really paranoid use a Wifi hotspot when you do this.
6) You're good to go.

In my case, I don't have a message set up to avoid name and voice.

http://www.speakout7eleven.ca/

 

[fuji]

The general principle here is you do not want the police to be able to find you after the appointment is over. That means your risk of arrest is limited to stings, or the police catching you red handed.

For outcall I would not give the agency/SP a complete address or hotel room number, but instead give an intersection, nearby coffee shop, or meet in the hotel lobby. That way an address identifying you does not appear in any booking log, text message, etc.

You can then tell the SP (heck, even tell her driver) the room number once you meet and ensure that information isn't written down or texted, only verbally relayed to her driver. For example she could call her driver and verbally relay it on arrival.

The goal is to limit your exposure to the encounter itself end not leave identifying information that could be used to track you down later, such as a record of your address in the SP's/agencies booking system.

 

[GPIDEAL]

Specifically, if the phone number enabled the police to identify who you are, then it makes possible an investigating based on whatever other information they have about you (emails, booking records, statements by the SP herself, eventually this thread on terb after they seize your computer, etc.).

If the phone number leads nowhere that investigation dead ends.

I agree they are not likely to go looking for someone who booked two months ago, but they might track down everyone who booked in the previous week.

They would have to be motivated to run a fairly large investigating but it would certainly be possible if they were motivated to do that.

I don't retain web page histories on my computer (Incognito Mode for one besides clearing browser cache, etc.). Savvy SPs will not easily give up info. If the police are going to intimidate SPs to enforce this law, then the Federal Cons are lying when they say sex workers are vicitims or exploited.

But I agree with you that we should be cognizant of areas of exposure.

 

[GPIDEAL]

1) Find a 7-11 near you.
2) Buy a cheap phone.
3) Buy a sim card. Runs on the Rogers network.
4) Buy a $25 airtime voucher. Good for a year and rolls over into the next year provided you add minutes before the year is up.
5) Go to the website and set up the phone and add the minutes. If you are really paranoid use a Wifi hotspot when you do this.
6) You're good to go.

In my case, I don't have a message set up to avoid name and voice.

http://www.speakout7eleven.ca/

Thank you!

 

[fuji]

I don't retain web page histories on my computer (Incognito Mode for one besides clearing browser cache, etc.). Savvy SPs will not easily give up info. If the police are going to intimidate SPs to enforce this law, then the Federal Cons are lying when they say sex workers are vicitims or exploited.

But I agree with you that we should be cognizant of areas of exposure.

You would be surprised what police can recover from a computer. Most people do not have the technical knowledge needed to ensure "deleted" files and browser history are truly deleted, and using tools to recover "deleted" records from computers and mobile phones are standard practice for the police.

Incognito mode will protect you from a prying spouse, but not from the police, unless you have coupled it with careful settings and an encrypted disk.

 

[GPIDEAL]

You would be surprised what police can recover from a computer. Most people do not have the technical knowledge needed to ensure "deleted" files and browser history are truly deleted, and using tools to recover "deleted" records from computers and mobile phones are standard practice for the police.

Incognito mode will protect you from a prying spouse, but not from the police, unless you have coupled it with careful settings and an encrypted disk.

Your computer does not retain an archive of your keystrokes. If you delete browser history and related cookies, you should be okay, even without encryption, unless you save emails or have text copies of your posts.

Incognito mode won't prevent an employer or hacker that has gained access WHILE you're on line.

Still, I doubt that the police can get a warrant to seize a computer if all they see is your phone # in a log book or contact list.

 

[fuji]

Your computer does not retain an archive of your keystrokes. If you delete browser history and related cookies, you should be okay, even without encryption, unless you save emails or have text copies of your posts.

What I'm trying to tell you is that you haven't really deleted it and it is easy for the police to recover, unless you have set up your computer carefully in a non standard way, something that is well being the technical know how of most people, including most people who think that they are computer savvy.

When you "delete" a file on a windows or mac computer the contents of the file are not shredded. The computer simply removes the name of the file from the directory listing. The data is still there until it is physically overwritten, by another file being written later to the same physical location on your disk, which may not happen for years depending how heavily you use your computer.

There are "secure delete" programs you can use, and ways of achieving the same thing with a clever use of encryption. But pulling that off in a way that would reliably defeat the widely available recovery tools police use is hard. I wouldn't bet my own freedom on being able to do it and I have a clear understanding of the technology!

This is true on your mobile phone as well. Deleting your text messages and call history through the menus does not really delete the data on the SD card in your phone and police can easily recover it.