Garbage Strike - Give Me a Break

[blackrock13]

There are private sectors which have bankable sick days; they're watching this unfold, if it goes the way of the city be sure that they too will easily lose it without any fight ...whose's going to protect those guys perks...labour law?
This fight indirectly affects some in the private sector.

I love that word 'some'. With this strike on for 3 weeks I 've talked to a lot of people in my professional, social and neighbour circles and have not talked to anyone who's bank days let alone banking 24 days a year, So, tell us who these private sector workers with this benefit.

Anybody out there know what the average number of days loss in various professions and maybe particularly in the garbage business. A lot of union supporter have have said what if I suffer a heart attack, need major surgery, or experience a catastrophic event; I'll need these days. Any HR/insurance/WCB people out there?

 

[blackrock13]

Just think about what you're saying: "Bankable sick days". The whole concept is so ridiculous, so silly. You get rewarded if you don't stay home??? In my job, and zillions like me, if we get sick and stay home, we don't eat, so we only take the "sick days" that we actually need. Imagine.

In the other thread, the big defender of the strike admitted to me that he has 300+ sick days in the bank. Holy Fuck that must be nice. !! Free money!! Yeah! You get that for hauling trash while Miss Molly Maid gets sick and takes too many days AND GETS FIRED.

Great system!

Holy hell MTT, don't open a door so wide they could drive a truck through. If I don't hear 'that's why we all need unions' today I'll be very surprised.

If your sick, your sick,and should be able to get a reasonable number of days off without repercussions, with a doctors note of course, and that's something to argue for in the workplace.

 

[Mao Tse Tongue]

Holy hell MTT, don't open a door so wide they could drive a truck through. If I don't hear 'that's why we all need unions' today I'll be very surprised.

If your sick, your sick,and should be able to get a reasonable number of days off without repercussions, with a doctors note of course, and that's something to argue for in the workplace.

Of course! But that's not what's at stake. That's my point! It's gotten ludicrous when a guy has 300+ days "in the bank". It's a completely distorted reality in 2009.

 

[jeffgoldblum]

Had the pleasure of waiting 15 minutes to drop off my garbage this morning, at first I was very annoyed but once I cooled down to wait it out I started talking to these guys. Scary thing is that it is not the same crew that was there before the new 15 minute rule and the new guys are very aggressive so no one should try and mess with them. Next thing I learned, they have no idea what the real issues are so there is also no use talking to them- they believe that this is what they need to do to further their cause and no discussion of "facts" will change their opinion. My telling them that the 15 minute rule will only make us back the city even more clearly fell on deaf ears. Next time, I will wait until I have several bags of garbage before joining the line-up, at least that will make my trip worthwhile.

JG

 

[blackrock13]

Had the pleasure of waiting 15 minutes to drop off my garbage this morning, at first I was very annoyed but once I cooled down to wait it out I started talking to these guys. Scary thing is that it is not the same crew that was there before the new 15 minute rule and the new guys are very aggressive so no one should try and mess with them. Next thing I learned, they have no idea what the real issues are so there is also no use talking to them- they believe that this is what they need to do to further their cause and no discussion of "facts" will change their opinion. My telling them that the 15 minute rule will only make us back the city even more clearly fell on deaf ears. Next time, I will wait until I have several bags of garbage before joining the line-up, at least that will make my trip worthwhile.

JG

Just think how you'll feel after waiting 2 hours.

Your right they don't have an idea what's really happening on many levels and they've been told not to talk about it, by their minders, if they do.

A lot of the flair ups on the picket line occur when hard ass union members and their minders are on the line. Many times when calmer minds are around there are no incidents. The 4 or 5 police office also calm things down when they're around.

 

[blackrock13]

My sister who works for a property management firm has the perk among others and apparently a few others.

That's one. Any more? That's not 'some'. 'Some' implies more than a couple and possibly more than a few.

 

[tboy]

Had the pleasure of waiting 15 minutes to drop off my garbage this morning, at first I was very annoyed but once I cooled down to wait it out I started talking to these guys. Scary thing is that it is not the same crew that was there before the new 15 minute rule and the new guys are very aggressive so no one should try and mess with them. Next thing I learned, they have no idea what the real issues are so there is also no use talking to them- they believe that this is what they need to do to further their cause and no discussion of "facts" will change their opinion. My telling them that the 15 minute rule will only make us back the city even more clearly fell on deaf ears. Next time, I will wait until I have several bags of garbage before joining the line-up, at least that will make my trip worthwhile.

JG

You have WAY more patience than I do. I'm at the point where I'm going to start organizing some strike breakers and believe me, if I had the money I'd be hiring them as of this moment.

 

[fuji]

just because most people don't have it and the city workers do doesn't make it a wrong, many union contracts have sick days anywhere from 5 -30 days a year + personel days or lieu days.

It doesn't matter who has or doesn't have it--it's wrong. Insurance is a cheaper way to provide sick benefits to all city employees.

 

[fuji]

The point is twofold

#1 Injunctions are very hard to get, there is a high bar.

#2 It is not you who gets to decide what is a health issue on your own

They would get this one, easily. Miller just doesn't have the balls to piss off the union by asking for it, because he is a union puppet.

 

[fuji]

A lot of union supporter have have said what if I suffer a heart attack, need major surgery, or experience a catastrophic event; I'll need these days. Any HR/insurance/WCB people out there?

That is bullshit. The city is offering essentially UNLIMITED sick days at less cost to the taxpayer via insurance. The union doesn't have a valid point here at all--what they really care about is viewing the sick bank as a form of retirement savings and they are not entitled to that, it was never menat to be a retirement savings plan.

 

[blackrock13]

That is bullshit. The city is offering essentially UNLIMITED sick days at less cost to the taxpayer via insurance. The union doesn't have a valid point here at all--what they really care about is viewing the sick bank as a form of retirement savings and they are not entitled to that, it was never menat to be a retirement savings plan.

My point was they don't have a valid point. I don't have the numbers to refute them.

Yes, shit happens, but in my mind they're just fear mongering or repeating what they've heard. The biggest advantage they have over most workers out there is that their employer has little chance of closing shop or going bankrupt and that makes their position more secure resulting in more radicle positions and reactions.

 

[someone]

Had the pleasure of waiting 15 minutes to drop off my garbage this morning, at first I was very annoyed but once I cooled down to wait it out I started talking to these guys. Scary thing is that it is not the same crew that was there before the new 15 minute rule and the new guys are very aggressive so no one should try and mess with them. Next thing I learned, they have no idea what the real issues are so there is also no use talking to them- they believe that this is what they need to do to further their cause and no discussion of "facts" will change their opinion. My telling them that the 15 minute rule will only make us back the city even more clearly fell on deaf ears. Next time, I will wait until I have several bags of garbage before joining the line-up, at least that will make my trip worthwhile.

JG

I think that the fact they were aggressive might have to do with the backgrounds of the people in those types of jobs. I have crossed picket lines during three university strikes in two different countries and never had any problems. One was a strike by support staff and the other two were faculty strikes (in most universities, faculty strikes are largely ignored by people working in economics departments). I never had any problems at all and providing you were not driving, the only delays involved the fact that unionized bus drivers would not cross the picket lines so you had to walk onto campus (likely faster than waiting for the bus to get through a picket line anyway).

However, I have heard of many problems like the ones you speak of at other picket lines. I think that may be because the type of person that ends up as a garbage worker (or other unskilled worker) is more likely to have done badly in school due to behavioural problems and the like. Moreover, if worse comes to worse and they actually do get charged (which rarely seems to happen) a criminal record is likely not a big deal to them. In addition, the fact that they are unskilled, likely means they are very dependent on a union to give them inflated wages that no one else would pay them (therefore, the are more likely to be more loyal to the union).

 

[Mao Tse Tongue]

However, I have heard of many problems like the ones you speak of at other picket lines. I think that may be because the type of person that ends up as a garbage worker (or other unskilled worker) is more likely to have done badly in school due to behavioural problems and the like. Moreover, if worse comes to worse and they actually do get charged (which rarely seems to happen) a criminal record is likely not a big deal to them. In addition, the fact that they are unskilled, likely means they are very dependent on a union to give them inflated wages that no one else would pay them (therefore, the are more likely to be more loyal to the union).

Very true. Unions protect the stupid. The rest of us have to actually do something to get paid.

 

[Mrbig1949]

Why should they have it.

It's not only that they have x amount of sick days, it also includes the high wage, the ability to bank their sick days (I thought sick days were to pay you when you were SICK not as an early retirement plan), and the numerous other "benefits" they get. Why should THEY (because they are union) get more than the industry standard? Or more than the private sector if there is a private sector company that can provide the same service(s) at a reasonable rate?

If they worked for a private company that company would be bankrupt. The ONLY reason they are paid what they are and have the benefits they have is because they are feeding at the public trough and think there is a neverending supply of funds to bank them.

This is a free market society and union or not, the market should dictate wage rates, benefits, etc.

Put it another way: if you needed insulin or other monthly drug how would YOU feel if all pharmacists got together and went on strike to increase their dispensing fees to $200.00 per script? How would you like it if you broke your leg falling down your steps and the docs in the emerg room said: pay me $5000.00 cash or I won't fix your leg?

They should have it because they negotiated it a long time ago. A labour contract is a business contract not some kind of favour extended to people. The idea that the market sets wages is dangerously nieve man do your parents know where you are?

 

[Mrbig1949]

No just union employees

ok, so you're saying that all employers should pay employees who aren't working the same as workers who are? Oh yeah, if you're worried about getting sick and your insurance doesn't cover all your wages, buy supplimentary insurance to make up the rest.

Look how well that worked out for GM.........

I still don't get it: people REALLY expect a full wage for NOT working? I thought people got paid for work they do, not work they don't?

Man, I hope you hire a contractor to do work for you. So you would be perfectly happy to pay him to do work that he didn't actually do? So if you hire him to replace your bathtub, sink, toilet and tile the floor and he doesn't replace the sink you'd be cool paying him anyways? LOL I doubt it......

When you NEGOTIATE this that means it is your priority, Governments agreed to this decades and decades ago, for the teachers it was the 1920s yes in the case of catastrophic illness they must use sick days first before LTD kicks in but sick days are full pay. LTD maybe 60%.

Just because you don't have it doesn't make it wrong. The market setting wages, how quaint.

 

[blackrock13]

I think that the fact they were aggressive might have to do with the backgrounds of the people in those types of jobs. I have crossed picket lines during three university strikes in two different countries and never had any problems. One was a strike by support staff and the other two were faculty strikes (in most universities, faculty strikes are largely ignored by people working in economics departments). I never had any problems at all and providing you were not driving, the only delays involved the fact that unionized bus drivers would not cross the picket lines so you had to walk onto campus (likely faster than waiting for the bus to get through a picket line anyway).

However, I have heard of many problems like the ones you speak of at other picket lines. I think that may be because the type of person that ends up as a garbage worker (or other unskilled worker) is more likely to have done badly in school due to behavioural problems and the like. Moreover, if worse comes to worse and they actually do get charged (which rarely seems to happen) a criminal record is likely not a big deal to them. In addition, the fact that they are unskilled, likely means they are very dependent on a union to give them inflated wages that no one else would pay them (therefore, the are more likely to be more loyal to the union).

Whoa, I smell a charge of racist coming from some corner; uneducated, unskilled, and unmotivated? Yet your so right for many of them. Can't say 'all' now, can we?

I've crossed a number of picket lines in a couple of countries, all in the name of business/work; never taking work from a union member. With one exception, I've been respectfully delayed and then allowed to come and go. Maybe it's my eyes, my body language or the fact that the picketers don't really quite know why I'm there. I respect their right to strike, picket and communicate their grievances, but do it right and don't cross that imaginary line.

 

[blackrock13]

When you NEGOTIATE this that means it is your priority, Governments agreed to this decades and decades ago, for the teachers it was the 1920s yes in the case of catastrophic illness they must use sick days first before LTD kicks in but sick days are full pay. LTD maybe 60%.

Just because you don't have it doesn't make it wrong. The market setting wages, how quaint.

As is often the case, your points don't carry much weight.

'When you negotiate that means it's your priority', makes little sense. Because you have priority doesn't means much more than you want those points to get more attention. If they get a mention in the contract, so much the better, but that doesn't mean priority can't be modified in time. Time is another factor. Contracts have a start time and a finish time, after which the contract has less validity, if any. Unions just try to make any changes to those contract they they see as a retro step for them to be amazingly difficult, regardless of logic or facts. It's totally ME,ME,ME! This type of message just make most people shake their head in disbelief and sometimes this continuous stance over shadows some good points, that do exist, but are often missed.

We've done it that way for years so we shouldn't change. One of the weakest arguments to ever put forth. Remember slavery, amputation and transportation of convicts. All done for eons and accepted as good ideas, but eventually stopped as times and ideas change. You and unions, over and over again show, through words and deeds, you refuse to change one little bit, expressing it as a sign of failure, surrender, or capitulation and accusing anyone who thinks of such as a traitor.

 

[Mao Tse Tongue]

Well said Blackrock.

 

[blackrock13]

I even gave them a chance to give unions the credit for the appealing of those laws and the changes in public opinion, but it hasn't happen yet. I'm disappointed.

 

[james t kirk]

Very true. Unions protect the stupid. The rest of us have to actually do something to get paid.

You know what, we need people of all walks to make this world go round. Calling them "stupid" is a bit demeaning and quite condescending. We simply all don't have the smarts to be neurosurgeons. And if we did, who would do the shit jobs that we ask the uneducated, or not so smart to do?

A hard working not so smart guy should be making a decent wage in my eyes. I don't consider minimum wage to be decent.

A great many people will argue that we don't need unions, etc. that there are labour laws to protect people, blah blah blah. I'm not so sure. I think that if you gave allot of employers the chance, it would be 1900 all over again. Someone has to stand up for the little guy and try and win him a decent wage because the truth of the matter is that we need people do do unskilled work.

To me, it's a tug of war and if it lands somewhere in the middle, I'm good with it.